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Greenscreens/FX on Super 16mm


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#1 bragis chut

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 02:40 PM

Hi:

Gearing up to shoot a 13 minute short film with quite a few sequences involving greenscreens and miniatures. Has anybody tried to shoot any super16mm stuff in which you have to pull mattes from a greenscreen? I did a short a while ago in which we only finished to video and the mattes weren't a problem. You never noticed anything. But this time around, I'd like to try to strike a print and possibly blow up to 35mm.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Thanks,

--Bragi
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 02:46 PM

Hi:

Gearing up to shoot a 13 minute short film with quite a few sequences involving greenscreens and miniatures. Has anybody tried to shoot any super16mm stuff in which you have to pull mattes from a greenscreen? I did a short a while ago in which we only finished to video and the mattes weren't a problem. You never noticed anything. But this time around, I'd like to try to strike a print and possibly blow up to 35mm.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Thanks,

--Bragi


Hi,

Use 7212 or 7205 for the least grain. You might find it cheaper to shoot on 35mm if you need a 35mm print.

Stephen
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#3 bragis chut

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 03:18 PM

Hi,

Use 7212 or 7205 for the least grain. You might find it cheaper to shoot on 35mm if you need a 35mm print.

Stephen


Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it. Unfortunately, I don't know if I can afford 35mm at the moment. I've done a cost breakdown with both scenarios... super16mm/35mm.... and it looks like this:


Super 16mm 18 rolls of 400FT = 2160.00$
35mm 17,500 ft of short ends = approx 3,300.00$

Processing for super16mm = 1,263.60$
Processing for 35mm = 3150.00$

Telecine for 35mm is probably a little more too. I know the 35mm print from a 35mm neg is probably less than going from HD to a 35mm blow up, but I don't have the numbers on that yet. The main thing that hurts is the processing cost and the fact that we won't get quite as good a deal on our camera package if we shoot 35mm as we might shooting super 16mm.
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 03:28 PM

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it. Unfortunately, I don't know if I can afford 35mm at the moment. I've done a cost breakdown with both scenarios... super16mm/35mm.... and it looks like this:
Super 16mm 18 rolls of 400FT = 2160.00$
35mm 17,500 ft of short ends = approx 3,300.00$

Processing for super16mm = 1,263.60$
Processing for 35mm = 3150.00$

Telecine for 35mm is probably a little more too. I know the 35mm print from a 35mm neg is probably less than going from HD to a 35mm blow up, but I don't have the numbers on that yet. The main thing that hurts is the processing cost and the fact that we won't get quite as good a deal on our camera package if we shoot 35mm as we might shooting super 16mm.


Hi,

The real question is do you need to do an HD DI at all! Just neg cut and finish!

Stephen
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#5 bragis chut

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 03:38 PM

Hi,

The real question is do you need to do an HD DI at all! Just neg cut and finish!

Stephen


Most of the research I've seen on the subject, seems to indicate you get a much better blow up from HD. This is what HUSTLE & FLOW did, plus you get the lattitude of playing with the colors and creating a more distinctive look and style.

I'm not a DP, so I'm not hugely versed in the subject but that's my understanding.
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 04:39 PM

Well, whether or not you do the blow-up optically or with a D.I., it doesn't get around the fact that the greenscreen composites will probably be done digitally and not be farmed back out to a Super-16 negative -- so those shots at least will still need to be transferred to a 35mm I.N. if you need to make a print. So the question is whether to just do a D.I. on the whole project to make things simpler, editorially, or blow-up the movie in an optical printer using slugs for the efx shots, transfer the efx shots to 35mm, then splice them into the 35mm I.N.

So either way, since the efx composites will be done digitally, you have the option of shooting them in 35mm or HD even if the live-action is Super-16. If you do use Super-16, use a camera with good registration, use a slow-speed stock, and be prepared to do some image stabilization in post before compositing.
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#7 Michael Nash

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 04:46 PM

Most of the research I've seen on the subject, seems to indicate you get a much better blow up from HD. This is what HUSTLE & FLOW did, plus you get the lattitude of playing with the colors and creating a more distinctive look and style.



How are you planning on doing the composites? Unless you're planning on making film separations and using an optical printer, you're going to have to scan/telecine the greenscreen shots anyway.

You don't have to shoot everything 35mm, maybe just the effects material. Same for the HD/DI. You could scan, composite, and film-out just those scenes. But you really need to budget the workflow all the way through (including any film dupes, separate camera rental, etc.) for each scenario to see what the overall cost comparison is.
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#8 Nick Mulder

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 04:58 PM

...be prepared to do some image stabilization in post before compositing.


perhaps a little off topic, but I was wondering if any image stabilisation plug-ins or progs could save the data of the stabilisations they had to make to a scene in a file - just X-Y info per frame ?
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#9 bragis chut

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 05:15 PM

Well, whether or not you do the blow-up optically or with a D.I., it doesn't get around the fact that the greenscreen composites will probably be done digitally and not be farmed back out to a Super-16 negative -- so those shots at least will still need to be transferred to a 35mm I.N. if you need to make a print. So the question is whether to just do a D.I. on the whole project to make things simpler, editorially, or blow-up the movie in an optical printer using slugs for the efx shots, transfer the efx shots to 35mm, then splice them into the 35mm I.N.

So either way, since the efx composites will be done digitally, you have the option of shooting them in 35mm or HD even if the live-action is Super-16. If you do use Super-16, use a camera with good registration, use a slow-speed stock, and be prepared to do some image stabilization in post before compositing.


Good point about the registration. I was going to use either an Arri SR II or SRIII. Any idea how the registration is on those? As for the FX work... I was planning on taking the film to HD (all of it) and having the effects done on HD and then outputting back to either 35mm or 16, depending on what festivals need what. Some fests even accept HD nowadays. I was going to try to avoid any optical blow up.
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#10 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 09:18 PM

perhaps a little off topic, but I was wondering if any image stabilisation plug-ins or progs could save the data of the stabilisations they had to make to a scene in a file - just X-Y info per frame ?

Combustion allows you to import and export image tracks. I think the files are mostly for use in Combustion or FFI, but if you wanted to use them elsewhere I guess you could write a plugin or something.
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