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How to Dub Non-Sync Cameras


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#1 Christian Blas

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 04:10 PM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera, I thought about dubbing the film after it is finished (filmed). The problem with this is that I have no idea of how to get rid of the loud noise (caused by the camera) and replace with voices and sounds that is created separately and also, I need to know how to syncronize with the picture and movements...the old way, not digitally (mp3s, computers, etc...) like as if in the 70s and 80s era.

P.S. This is urgent.
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#2 Kevin Masuda

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:29 PM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera, I thought about dubbing the film after it is finished (filmed). The problem with this is that I have no idea of how to get rid of the loud noise (caused by the camera) and replace with voices and sounds that is created separately and also, I need to know how to syncronize with the picture and movements...the old way, not digitally (mp3s, computers, etc...) like as if in the 70s and 80s era.

P.S. This is urgent.





I'd seriously think about this, making a feature with a K3 is probably not a wise option. For one, they are very noisy, second, the load times(since it only takes 100ft loads[2 mins 30 seconds@24fps]). The K3 would probably be good for B cam stuff. One question, what is the budget for your feature?


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#3 Matt Pacini

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 06:05 PM

This is an insane idea, trust me.

I made a feature with a noisy camera that only took 2.5 minute loads, and you're FAR better off getting a decent quiet camera that is crystal sync.
The amount of extra time & money you're going to spend trying to sync up your audio, and/or getting rid of camera noise (and you never really will get rif of it) and extra time standing around while you're constantly changing film, FAR exceeds the amount of extra money you will spend on a decent quiet sync camera.

I would suggest doing what I did: get a CP-16R.
It takes 400 foot loads, it's very quiet, it's sync sound, it's not a windup, and you can get into a basic package for well under $2,000.
It's a FAR superior camera to what you're talking about, and will save you hundreds if not thousands of hours of extra work for an inferior outcome.

MP
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#4 Kirk Anderson

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 06:34 PM

i asked this question a week ago, check out the post called "Faux sync sound" all your questions are answered on equip and how to do this. Although I would do this for a short or music video, I would definately buy a CP16 for a feature.
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 08:27 PM

In film school, I shot this fantasy movie out in the woods around CalArts and we had terrible airplane & traffic noise on the audio that could not be justified in this fantasy world. The director later played the parts of the shots he was planning on using, with extra heads & tails, on a VCR (this was before DVD) and had the actor dub the lines to the video playback, I thinking listening to the old audio on headphones so he could sync himself to it -- it worked rather well, actually. In this case, the new lines were recorded on a Nagra. I think he had to re-sync them by eye after he had the sound transferred.
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#6 Richard Boddington

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 08:34 PM

I thought I was a Kamikaze with the way I make films, but a K3 on a feature with synch sound? The Japanese air force would not have admitted you into the Kamikaze squad they'd say you're too nuts to committ suicide :)

Not helpful or what you want to hear I know, but you've been given some excellent alternatives, like the CP16 idea. An MOS film shot with a K3 would be a challenge due to the 100ft loads.

But if you insist on going this route, there is a crystal synch motor for the K3. Check ebay and do a Google search, it's out there. Next you'll need a blimp for it, I built one for an Arri IIIC and it worked, but I realized I would have been nuts to shoot with it. My thread and pictures of it are in the general discussion thread some place way back there.

Any other camera noise left over can be removed via the audio tools that come with FCP, not sure which version.

Without the crystal synch motor you'll need the speed checker from Clive Tobin. Set up the K3 in front of it on a tri-pod and run it at 24fps. While you look through the viewfinder adjust the speed control on the K3 until you get it as close to stable 24fps as you can, you'll never get it perfect, but closer than guessing. No matter what you do, without the crystal synch motor your audio will drift off very quickly.

I have a K3, good little unit. But a feature camera using sound? That's a stretch even for a crazy low budget guy like me.

R,
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#7 Clive Tobin

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 11:00 PM

... there is a crystal synch motor for the K3.
...Without the crystal synch motor you'll need the speed checker from Clive Tobin. ...


Thanks for the plug, but both of these items are now discontinued and we don't have any left. We could make another special run of speed checkers if someone ordered say 10 units and paid in advance and was not in a hurry to get them. Lately however they have not been selling well at all so whoever bought these would never be able to re-sell them.

FWIW our former K-3 crystal motors were the TXM-7/K, TXM-D, TXM-20 and TXM20K. If anyone is interested the instruction manuals for most of these are posted on the TCS website http://www.tobincinemasystems.com .
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#8 David Sweetman

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:51 AM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3


Don't do it.
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#9 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 03:35 AM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera,


From my side, i recommend choose Kinor-16 SX-2M,
Real professional quality of footages, electrical motor, 120 m film magazines ( 10 minutes of footages at 25 fps ), noise 38..42Db.
The size of Kinor with 30 m magazine similar of size of Kransohgrosk-3.
The original electrical motor have Pilot Signal sync system and electronic clapper.
The electrical motor can be modify to crystal sync.
And low price of set.
Good choose of 16 mm camera for shooting of feature film.
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#10 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 05:29 AM

I've done this with a Bolex. However, dialogue is best shot on a camera that can take 400ft rolls, there's just too much wastage with 100 ft rolls.

It's better if you can get sync sound at the time shooting, then you got a reference that the actors can listen to when looping their lines. You'll have to fine tune the timing when editing. One interesting part is that you have to build up a soundtrack from scratch - John Boorman is a big believer in this, he picked it up from the Italians.

However, this involves lot of work and you'll spend more time laying the sound than actually shooting the film. Getting usable sync dialogue will cut down on the workload and may help performances from what could be an inexperienced cast. A CP16R type camera makes sense.
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#11 Christian Blas

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:53 PM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera, I thought about dubbing the film after it is finished (filmed). The problem with this is that I have no idea of how to get rid of the loud noise (caused by the camera) and replace with voices and sounds that is created separately and also, I need to know how to syncronize with the picture and movements...the old way, not digitally (mp3s, computers, etc...) like as if in the 70s and 80s era.

I began to do some thinking about dubbing non-sync cameras and budget costs this is going to take me. I wondered about how to dub and this is all I got (I must tell you I'm a beginner at this and please tell me if this is possible or not likely able to do.)

Equipment:
-Tape Recorder
-Microphone
-VCR
-Transfers of film to VHS (post-production)
-A quiet/silent room

Instructions:
-First you send the film to be transferred to VHS for post-production
-Next you put the VHS in a VCR (in which the VCR has to be in a quiet/silent room)
-After that, you plug in the microphone to the tape recorder and plug the recorder to the VCR and you start to leave it alone so it can collect the silence and replace the camera/unwanted noise.
-After that rewind and dub over it again with voices and sound effects.
-When finished take out the VHS and send it to be transfered to be blown up to 35mm.

Does this sound reasonable or is there another solution for dubbing over non-sync cameras like in "El Marachi"?
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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 01:07 PM

How are you going to edit the movie itself? If you are transferring the footage to video (like Mini-DV) and editing it on your computer, there is no reason to transfer footage to VHS. You just put the clips from your editing session on the computer out onto a DVD for playback.

And by "tape recorder" what so you mean? You'd want some sort of high-quality recording system, maybe even record directly into a laptop or something. Not a cassette tape deck...

What I described was for a student movie made 16 years ago remember...
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#13 Christian Blas

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 01:37 PM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera, I thought about dubbing the film after it is finished (filmed). The problem with this is that I have no idea of how to get rid of the loud noise (caused by the camera) and replace with voices and sounds that is created separately and also, I need to know how to syncronize with the picture and movements...the old way, not digitally (mp3s, computers, etc...) like as if in the 70s and 80s era.

I'm confused...how am I supposed to dub my movies without digital equipment (mp3s, computers, etc...) but with other non-digital equipment like from the past in such low cost.

Is there no hope for non-sync cameras except crystal-sync motors and blimps? Isnt there another way to dub non-sync cameras...this is urgent according to my budget which is about $100,000.

Is there somehow a way to shoot a feature witrh a non-sync camera silently?
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#14 Chance Shirley

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 03:15 PM

The equipment you're talking about (Tape Recorder, Microphone, VCR) doesn't make any sense for a movie with a $100,000 budget. Neither does using a K3. Spend a bit of your budget on renting or buying a quiet camera and proper post production equipment (non-linear editing machine, digital audio recorder). Better yet, pay someone with experience to help you with sound. Audio, both production and post-production, is tricky stuff, especially if you've never done it before.

If you really want to do it all yourself, I'd recommend starting with a short film, so you can see what you're getting into.
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#15 David Sweetman

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 03:39 PM

You're gonna blow up a VHS to 35mm? Have you even talked to the post house? I reckon that's where you ought to start, they're usually knowledgable folks and can help you out a lot.

And yeah, for 100k, set yourself up with a camera that is at least pin registered.

I think you'll find there are clear-cut and cost-worthy benefits of transfering to digital media. Otherwise you will have to edit your film - you'll have to actually cut the work print, and then have the lab cut the negative. If you have no experience, that's not something you want to do yourself on a feature film...and it might be tough even finding a film editor anymore, seems a lot of them have been hurt by structural unemployment since the advent of digital technology.

Of course you can still matchback the negative with your computer-generated edit decision list. But it will be much easier to sync your dubs on a computer.
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 04:34 PM

We've had this discussion elsewhere, but if you're going to shoot a 16mm sound feature with a budget of $100,000... then do you really need to use a cheap non-sync K3? Either you need to buy a quiet sync-sound camera or rent one, and with that budget, you should be able to do either, so why are you using a non-crystal K3 except for MOS shots only?

I shot a $100,000 feature with a rented Arri-SR3, but you could even buy something decent for under $15,000, like a used Aaton LTR, or an early sync-sound camera for much less, like under $5000, like an Eclair NPR.

Also, a feature creates a large volume of sound work naturally, so you're going to spend way too much time dubbing the entire movie. A few scenes, fine.

You can post-dub to footage shot non-crystal though, as long as it doesn't drift horribly around, so much that your guide tracks are useless, and even then, with some work, it could be done. But it's a horribly inefficient way to make a sound feature, and inefficiency ultimately can cost you more in the long run.
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#17 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 05:40 PM

[color=#3333FF].

Does this sound reasonable or is there another solution for dubbing over non-sync cameras like in "El Marachi"?


I seem to recall that it cost $70,000 to put the soundtrack on "El Marahi". The $7,000 budget sounded great in the marketing, but in reality the final film cost a lot more.

How much dialogue has your film ? If it's dialogue heavy, or reasonable amounts of dialogue, if you've got a $100,000 budget, shooting the sync sound with a camera designed for the job is the way to go.

If it has a short lines of dialogue in the middle of action, you can get away with a lot more. I know one feature film shot on a Bolex was done this way.

However, I wouldn't even try this on VHS, there are much better methods around these days. I'd spend time listening to and reading on how soundtracks are constructed. They involve extremely time consuming and detailed work and there's nothing worse than a badly dubbed film.

In the 1970s and 80s they edited on film, not on VHS. On film you can lay out the tracks the same way as a a NLE does. The medium is different, but the principles are the same.
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#18 Matt Pacini

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 05:56 PM

You have a $100K budget, and you can't afford a couple grand for a camera?

Seriously, shooting on a K3 is going to cost you equal to tens of thousands of dollars worth of uneccessary labor costs, both on-set, and in post. You're NOT saving any money by using this camera.
Also, dubbing is a pain in the ass, and some actors can't do it well at all.
You will notice that you only hear first time filmmakers saying "I'm going to dub the whole film".
NOBODY does this anymore, except for people who have never done it, who think it's easy, then find out the hard way that it's damn hard.
It's a nightmare to do much dubbing at all.

MP

Edited by Matt Pacini, 21 June 2006 - 05:57 PM.

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#19 Robert Hughes

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 06:33 PM

"I'm going to dub the whole film".
NOBODY does this anymore, except for people who have never done it, who think it's easy, then find out the hard way that it's damn hard.
It's a nightmare to do much dubbing at all.

MP

On the other hand, a majority of European films of the 50's and 60's were dubbed. If they did it, then dubbing is not impossible, just uneconomical.
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#20 Chris Keth

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 08:33 PM

I am currently thinking about making a feature-film with a Krasnogorsk-3 (K-3) which is what I can afford for now, but because of the loud noise caused by the camera, I thought about dubbing the film after it is finished (filmed). The problem with this is that I have no idea of how to get rid of the loud noise (caused by the camera) and replace with voices and sounds that is created separately and also, I need to know how to syncronize with the picture and movements...the old way, not digitally (mp3s, computers, etc...) like as if in the 70s and 80s era.

P.S. This is urgent.



Well, standard practice for this situation is to record scratch track on location to use as a guide. You DON'T get rid of the camera sound, it's there and loud. Instead, you create the entire soundtrack for your film in post. It's a pain in the ass, it's expensive, and it's stupid when you can get a pretty nice sync camera for a reasonable price these days. In short, don't do it. :blink:
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