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Music Videos 24p 30p or what & what shutter ?


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#1 Diamond Studios

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 12:21 AM

Hi all, what a great forum, I've been reading it like crazy for the last month, tonights my first post, Im a professional audio engineer for 20 years, but video not quite 2 years, I have the panasonic ag-dvx100a, after about 20 or so videos Its looking pretty good, Im striving for the best I can be, what would you all recomend for shooting music videos, 24p,30p,ect, I try to only shoot in the sun, bein that Im still learning, and figur Its my safest bet right now, what should I be using shutter wise, Im not doing fast panning, tripods, and camera dollies mostly, one last question I use vegas 6, If I do record in 24p, when Im capturing, do I capture in 24 fps film or 29.7 ? I know in 24p mode that Im recording at 23.976 so where should I be, Thank you all for any help
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#2 Hans Kellner

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:03 AM

what would you all recomend for shooting music videos, 24p,30p,ect

You should determine what your final media will be. Are you shooting for tv? DVD? Web? Also, with the DVX there are two 24p modes; normal and advanced. In 24p normal (24pn) the frames are encoded using a 2:3:2:3 cadence. In 24p advanced (24pa) they are encoded 2:3:3:2. I don't want to rehash the details (search and you shall find lots of info) but shooting 24pn is fine if your final output will be 30/29.97 (e.g. tv). Shoot 24pa if you plan to output to film or 24p DVD. Again, lots of info regarding the two modes if you search.

what should I be using shutter wise, Im not doing fast panning, tripods, and camera dollies mostly

Depends on the look you are trying to accomplish. If you want a softer look then shoot 1/48th. A choppier action film look, then 1/250 or higher.

I use vegas 6, If I do record in 24p, when Im capturing, do I capture in 24 fps film or 29.7 ? I know in 24p mode that Im recording at 23.976 so where should I be

In both 24pn and 24pa the footage is encoded and written to tape as 29.97. The cadence determines how the two modes are encoded. The encoding format for 24pa allows extraction of the 24p frames from the 29.97 footage without a generation loss of detail. The 24pn encoding will have data loss.

So how to capture depends on whether you are shooting 24p normal or advanced (see comment above). If you film using 24pn then just capture and edit as 29.97fps footage. For 24pa footage you capture as 24fps footage. But your editor must support the 2:3:3:2 pulldown to be able to capture/import the 24pa footage. I'm not familiar with Vegas so someone else might be able to help.
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#3 Diamond Studios

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:35 AM

You should determine what your final media will be.

DVD for home use, but would like to get to tv.

Shoot 24pa if you plan to output to film or 24p DVD.

so is 24pa right for dvd but not tv ? I'd like to do both, I do understand the two different pulldowns as well as my editor vegas suports both of them,

Depends on the look you are trying to accomplish. If you want a softer look then shoot 1/48th. A choppier action film look, then 1/250 or higher.

I;m just not sure what the average music video is shooting in, I know theres always going to be somebody doing something, just what is the general norm.

In both 24pn and 24pa the footage is encoded and written to tape as 29.97. The cadence determines how the two modes are encoded. The encoding format for 24pa allows extraction of the 24p frames from the 29.97 footage without a generation loss of detail. The 24pn encoding will have data loss.

if 24pn has a loss of data, wouldnt you want to shoot in 24pa ?

If you film using 24pn then just capture and edit as 29.97fps footage.

so are you saying capture in 29.97 then use the 2:3 pull down in rendering to see the 24p film look ? thats what I've been doing and I'm curious if I'm doing it correct. I really appreciate all the advice, I am still learning, If you have any questions about audio, I would be glad to help any of you out, thanks for the help.
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 01:54 AM

I think you're confused...

First of all, you can store 480/24P on a DVD and the player will add the 3:2 pulldown to convert for 60i NTSC display. However, if you also need to release it on tape (like VHS or Mini-DV), then you'd have to make a 60i version first from your 24P master on your editing system and record 60i/480 to tape.

You could also shoot 30P if you wanted to... it will look a little smoother, motion-wise, than 24P, being a slightly higher frame rate. Trouble is if you ever wanted to send out a PAL version -- 30P does not convert as smoothly to 50i as 24P does.

The NTSC version of the camera always records 60i no matter what (59.94i to be precise, or 29.97 fps.) The only difference between 24PA and 24PN (23.98P actually) is the type of pulldown used to create 60i (59.94i.)

You would use 24PN if you were going to leave the standard 3:2 pulldown in and edit the piece as 60i material, which will throw off the cadence of the 3:2 pulldown once you start cutting. But then you'd be stuck putting only a 480/60i version on DVD. It would still have that 24P look, since that's how it was shot, but it would not look as sharp and clean on a progressive scan monitor, being interlaced-scan.

You would use 24PA if you were going to remove the pulldown and edit as 24P. Then you'd have a final 24P master from which you could add a standard 3:2 pulldown to create a separate 60i version if needed too. So you could release it as 480/24P on Region 1 DVD and on the web, but have a 60i version to release on NTSC tape. You could also convert the 480/24P master to 560/25P for release on DVD in PAL countries.
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#5 Diamond Studios

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:04 PM

I have to admit david, Im excited to talk to you, as I said on my first post I been on this forum for quite some time just reading and trying to learn as much as I can, thank you for responding all of you, In audio it took my 10 years to get my first song on the radio, that was also back in the analog days ( tape ) and even at that point it wasnt all that great, now Im 20 years into It and work with artists like black eyed peas, frankie J, ect ect, my point (thanks for sticking with me ) I dont want to wait 10 years to have my music videos aired, Im a manual guy ( not the smartest, I'll just alwys read them severall times, in order to put the equipment to use at my best potential) and I have been doing alot of research, however on my own, remember I'm not quite 2 years into filming. Is there an instructional dvd that would catter to me (possible) being that I have the DVX 100A, I have alot to learn at the same time I also have already shot 20 videos, and they look pretty good, but you know how it is I want them to look great, and there not at that level yet.

I think you're confused...

I am.

First of all, you can store 480/24P on a DVD and the player will add the 3:2 pulldown to convert for 60i NTSC display.

so for me going right now to dvd, and hopefully tv (in the near future) would I render the project uncompressed, I.e. dont remove the pulldown ?

You would use 24PN if you were going to leave the standard 3:2 pulldown in and edit the piece as 60i material, which will throw off the cadence of the 3:2 pulldown once you start cutting. But then you'd be stuck putting only a 480/60i version on DVD. It would still have that 24P look, since that's how it was shot, but it would not look as sharp and clean on a progressive scan monitor, being interlaced-scan.

please answer this one, so would'nt it be best for me to shoot with 24pa ?

You would use 24PA if you were going to remove the pulldown and edit as 24P. Then you'd have a final 24P master from which you could add a standard 3:2 pulldown to create a separate 60i version if needed too.

so 24pa I capture it in vegas as 29.97, go into my preferences select remove 2:3 3:2 pulldown, do my editing, and when I render also render with the 2:3 3:2 in (compressed I think) thank you, thank you, for all and any help, if any of you have questions about audio, I would be glad to help. David seriously, your in LA im in san dimas, can I hire you for a day? e-mail me at CDZ4U @ aol.com and again thank you all ! !
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:03 PM

so for me going right now to dvd, and hopefully tv (in the near future) would I render the project uncompressed, I.e. dont remove the pulldown ? please answer this one, so would'nt it be best for me to shoot with 24pa ? so 24pa I capture it in vegas as 29.97, go into my preferences select remove 2:3 3:2 pulldown, do my editing, and when I render also render with the 2:3 3:2 in (compressed I think)


If you put 480/24P on a DVD, you would have had to remove the pulldown because the camera always records 60i no matter what.

So yes, it would be best to shoot 24PA, remove the advanced pulldown, and edit as 24P, and don't add the pulldown back for DVD. Remember, until you remove the pulldown, 24PA is not 24P, it's a 60i recording with a unique pulldown that was needed to convert the 24P capture to 60i.

In terms of how to remove the advanced pulldown, I don't know, I'm not an editor really. I think FCP allows you to remove it as you are importing it into the computer. Don't know how Vegas does it.
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