Jump to content


Photo

Decent, Cheap 16mm cameras


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 29 June 2006 - 07:03 AM

Can anyone suggest a decent, cheap 16mm camera for under $ 350USD. Thanks.
  • 0

#2 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:43 PM

Can anyone suggest a decent, cheap 16mm camera for under $ 350USD. Thanks.


I think, thi scan be russian cine cameras :
Krasnogorsk-3
Krasnogorsk-2
Krasnogorsk-1
Kiev-16 UE
Kiev-16 E
Alpha-16

All this cameras have good technical characteristics and low price and can be use for shoot of high quality footages.
You can see images and technical characteristics of this cameras on my sites.
  • 0

#3 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 29 June 2006 - 01:59 PM

For the Russian cameras, I would limit myself to the Krasnogorsk-3 - the most modern and versatile of them (not that it's all that modern or versatile). The Kiev is an interesting beast - a great viewfinder, but the interior is finished off with weird plastic bits where there should be metal. The earlier Krasnogorsks are not worth the bother, especially when there are so many clean K3's available. In fact, the K3 with an M42 (Pentax screw) mount is probably your best choice, and well under $350 (probably under $200).

Other good, inexpensive 16mm cameras -

The Bolex. Look for a late model (flat base) M3, M4, or M5, which have no reflex viewers. Pair this with a late model Pan Cinor 17-85mm f2.0 zoom with built in reflex finder for a versatile, high-quality reflex viewing camera you can grow with you (lenses, crystal motors, etc.). You should be able to do this for less than $350 if you watch Ebay like a hawk and remain patient.

The Kodak K100 - Look for a 3-lens turret model with a nice set of Cine-Ektar lenses and matching viewfinder objectives. This isn't a reflex camera, but it's a real honey otherwise. You won't even get close to $350 for one of these babies.

The Bell and Howell "Filmo" or 240T (not the 240EE). The Filmo is the original "bullet proof" 16mm camera. Non-reflex, but with a reflex viewing assist to help you nail focus. Definitely get a newer model with interlocking lens and viewfinding turret and sprockets for single-perf films. These take C-mount lenses (cheap and plentiful), and one often sees them offered with a nice set of Angenieux primes for well under $300. The 240T is a "civilian" make-over of the Filmo - very cheap to buy when you find them, but not as solid as the original.

The Canon Scoopic (the original model). The 16mm that operates like a Super 8. Just make sure you're getting a good working camera with healthy batteries and a charger.

Avoid:

Anything Russian (or East German) other than the Krasnogorsk K3 (which is a good choice).

The Beaulieu R16. Nice ones will cost more than you want to spend. Cheaper examples may have electronic problems.

The Pathe. Nice feature set, but questionable reliability.

The Kodak Cine Special. Precurser to the K100, these date back to the 1920's, have a non-standard lens mount, and are HEAVY.

That's about all I can think of - all the other cameras you're likely to consider are in a higher price range. (My vote goes to the Bolex.) Hope this helps!

Edited by Ian Marks, 29 June 2006 - 02:01 PM.

  • 0

#4 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:16 PM

The Beaulieu R16. Nice ones will cost more than you want to spend. Cheaper examples may have electronic problems.


---The earliest two models were spring wound.
The first has no electroniics.
The next has a light meter which took 625 mercury cells.

Much more reliable than the later electric models.

---LV
  • 0

#5 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:34 PM

It'll cost you a bit more, but the more I use the Arri 16bl the more I like it.
  • 0

#6 Andy_Alderslade

Andy_Alderslade
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1055 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London, UK

Posted 29 June 2006 - 04:34 PM

It'll cost you a bit more, but the more I use the Arri 16bl the more I like it.


Cristopher Nolan the director of 'Memento' and 'Batman Begins' shot his debut film 'Following' on an Arri BL, plus a Bolex for many exterior street shots.
  • 0

#7 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:20 PM

Thanks for the replies everybody, I'm really touched.

How much more will an ARRI 16BL cost ?
I can probably stretch to $ 1000 if I put off buying the camera for a year or so but can't go too much further.

Thanks Everyone :) :) :)
  • 0

#8 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:27 PM

It'll cost you a bit more, but the more I use the Arri 16bl the more I like it.


If you can find a BL (or any other working Arri) for under $350, buy it.

Remember that when buying older electric-drive cameras, you'll often have to purchase fresh batteries too, or have the old batteries re-celled. Something to watch out for when watching your budget.

Thanks for the replies everybody, I'm really touched.

How much more will an ARRI 16BL cost ?
I can probably stretch to $ 1000 if I put off buying the camera for a year or so but can't go too much further.

Thanks Everyone :) :) :)


Going up to $1,000 opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. It would help if we knew what you were planning to do with your camera.

Off the top of my head:

Bolex Rex 4 or 5

Beaulieu R16

Cinema Products CP16A, or possibly a CP16R

A rough Arriflex 16s, 16m, or 16BL

A nice Canon Scoopic 16M (there's a beauty on Ebay right now with a low buy-it-now price) or 16MS

Maybe an Eclair NPR or ACL I.

Time to do some research!
  • 0

#9 Ole Dost

Ole Dost
  • Guests

Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:03 AM

For the Russian cameras, I would limit myself to the Krasnogorsk-3 - the most modern and versatile of them (not that it's all that modern or versatile). The Kiev is an interesting beast - a great viewfinder, but the interior is finished off with weird plastic bits where there should be metal. The earlier Krasnogorsks are not worth the bother, especially when there are so many clean K3's available. In fact, the K3 with an M42 (Pentax screw) mount is probably your best choice, and well under $350 (probably under $200).

Other good, inexpensive 16mm cameras -

The Bolex. Look for a late model (flat base) M3, M4, or M5, which have no reflex viewers. Pair this with a late model Pan Cinor 17-85mm f2.0 zoom with built in reflex finder for a versatile, high-quality reflex viewing camera you can grow with you (lenses, crystal motors, etc.). You should be able to do this for less than $350 if you watch Ebay like a hawk and remain patient.

The Kodak K100 - Look for a 3-lens turret model with a nice set of Cine-Ektar lenses and matching viewfinder objectives. This isn't a reflex camera, but it's a real honey otherwise. You won't even get close to $350 for one of these babies.

The Bell and Howell "Filmo" or 240T (not the 240EE). The Filmo is the original "bullet proof" 16mm camera. Non-reflex, but with a reflex viewing assist to help you nail focus. Definitely get a newer model with interlocking lens and viewfinding turret and sprockets for single-perf films. These take C-mount lenses (cheap and plentiful), and one often sees them offered with a nice set of Angenieux primes for well under $300. The 240T is a "civilian" make-over of the Filmo - very cheap to buy when you find them, but not as solid as the original.

The Canon Scoopic (the original model). The 16mm that operates like a Super 8. Just make sure you're getting a good working camera with healthy batteries and a charger.

Avoid:

Anything Russian (or East German) other than the Krasnogorsk K3 (which is a good choice).

The Beaulieu R16. Nice ones will cost more than you want to spend. Cheaper examples may have electronic problems.

The Pathe. Nice feature set, but questionable reliability.

The Kodak Cine Special. Precurser to the K100, these date back to the 1920's, have a non-standard lens mount, and are HEAVY.

That's about all I can think of - all the other cameras you're likely to consider are in a higher price range. (My vote goes to the Bolex.) Hope this helps!


I don´t agree with the advice "avoid anything russioan than the Krasnogorsk 3". There is probably one of the best choices out of Russia - The Kinor 16 cx m2. You can get both 100ft and 400ft-mags for it. It´s easy to load. And it is PIN REGISTERED -that means: the pictures are rock-steady on ARRi-SR-Level! I saw offers for about 400 and 500 Euros and a completely new one goes for max. 1500 Euros on EBay. It has a true reflex finder (with a mirror shutter disk -also like Arri) and it was in use for News gathering for the USSR-Television -what means it is a true professional camera, not a amateur toy like the K3. It has it´s special lens mount -but the lenses are easy to find on EBay and they are cheap -and very good. There´s a 10-100mm Zoom lens, a 12-120mm Zoom Lens, 6mm, 10mm, 25mm, 50mm, 100mm, 150mm, 200mm and even 300mm Primes. All of them rather cheap and very good. Especially the 10-100mm Zoom.
  • 0

#10 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:10 AM

Hobbyist wildlife filming as well as sound sync short films.
  • 0

#11 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 30 June 2006 - 08:33 AM

The earlier Krasnogorsks are not worth the bother, especially when there are so many clean K3's available. In fact, the K3 with an M42 (Pentax screw) mount is probably your best choice, and well under $350 (probably under $200).


I not agree idea, what Krasnogrosk-1 or Krasnogorsk-3 with bayonet bad choice.
K-1 have full similar transport mechanism and viewfinder with K-3.
But, K-1 have metal film cartridge and you have permanent protect of your not exposed and exposed film.
You can open lid on any time and check of film on film gate and re-load film.
If you have a few cartridges with different type of film, you can set cartridge for real subject of shooting and
replace film for other subject.
You can do this with K-3 ? not, because, every open lid will expose of 1.5 m of film + 0.6 m of film from start and end with loading and discharge.
The cine film not cheap now.

From other side, if you set spool with strained of disks on K-3, the film will wind bad and you can lost all shooted film.

K-3 very good camera, but, K1 trustworthy too.

About M42 screw mount and bayonet mount.
What lenses can have K-3 with M42 screw mount ?
original zoomlens 17-69 mm, wide 8 mm Peleng with big field distortion and many photo lenses.
But, all this photo lenses - tele and super tele lenses for 16 mm film shooting.

The cine shooting need wide angle lenses.
What wide angle lens you can use with M42 ?

from Other side, Krasnogrosk with bayonet mount can use original 17-69 mm zoom lens, prime lens of K-1 cameras 12.5 mm, 20 mm, 50 mm, prime lenses of SP-16 cameras 10 mm, 15mm, 20 mm, 25 mm, 50 mm, 75 mm, modified professional zoom lenses 16 OPF 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm.

And, the answer, what lens mount better, the personal answer of film maker.
  • 0

#12 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 30 June 2006 - 11:11 AM

I don´t agree with the advice "avoid anything russioan than the Krasnogorsk 3". There is probably one of the best choices out of Russia - The Kinor 16 cx m2. You can get both 100ft and 400ft-mags for it. It´s easy to load. And it is PIN REGISTERED -that means: the pictures are rock-steady on ARRi-SR-Level! I saw offers for about 400 and 500 Euros and a completely new one goes for max. 1500 Euros on EBay. It has a true reflex finder (with a mirror shutter disk -also like Arri) and it was in use for News gathering for the USSR-Television -what means it is a true professional camera, not a amateur toy like the K3. It has it´s special lens mount -but the lenses are easy to find on EBay and they are cheap -and very good. There´s a 10-100mm Zoom lens, a 12-120mm Zoom Lens, 6mm, 10mm, 25mm, 50mm, 100mm, 150mm, 200mm and even 300mm Primes. All of them rather cheap and very good. Especially the 10-100mm Zoom.


I didn't include the Kinor in my original post because a Kinor kit generally costs well over $350. The Kinor does have a lot of wonderful features and I actually considered getting one before settling on an ACL. I should have included in my list of cameras to consider for around a thousand dollars BUT it should be pointed out that the Kinor runs at a non-cyrstal, non-standard (for the U.S., anyway) 25 fps. No slo-mo or anything else. Also, you would almost certainly have to rig up your own battery, and that's going to cost at least an additional $150 for a decent cell and charger like the Nalpak. There are a lot of great modifications for this camera - I myself examined a PL-mount, multiple crystal speed, Super-16 version of the camera at Slow Motion, Inc. The price for this camera, however, was way, way north of $1,000.

I reiterate that I think you should avoid any Krasnogorsk other than the K3. I don't think it's even worth discussing when the K3's are plentiful, cheap, and well under the original proposed price of $350. 'Nuff said.
  • 0

#13 Kirk Anderson

Kirk Anderson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Other

Posted 30 June 2006 - 12:48 PM

I have a K3 Bayonet mount, that I am currently trying to sell in efforts to liberate some of my 16mm battalion. I have had both M42 and bayonet mount K3's and I agree with Olex. I bought a 12.5mm wide angle bayonet mount lens for my K3 and it was $115, try finding any M42 mount wide angle for that cheap. Even the so highly reguarded Peleng 8mm is going to run you $325 on ebay if you get lucky or $400 from any dealer. Plus you can have a sweet Professional built up Kinor zoom lens for the price of the over-rated peleng. Remember that thread a couple months back with the K3 everyone was drooling over with the rods and matte box, plus the video viewfinder? That was a bayonet mount. I'm yet to see a K3 M42 mount that was built up better than that one.
Anyhoo, not trying to cause trouble, just wanted to give my point of view, plus I'm currently selling a bayonet Mount K3, with the 12.5mm wide angle for $325 total. You can pick up in the bay area or I'll ship it if you want, US only. PM me if anyone is interested.
  • 0

#14 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 30 June 2006 - 02:04 PM

. The Kinor does have a lot of wonderful features and I actually considered getting one before settling on an ACL.


I can not agree idea, what Eclair ACL better from Kinor-16.
I have Eclair ACL-1.5 and Kinor-16 cameras and can compare this cameras on practice.
Yes, of course, this is my personal opinion and you can have other opinion.
But, i see mechanism of Eclair and Kinor inside.
ACL have registration pin on trasport mechanism ? not ? Kinor-16 have one transport and one registartion pin.
ACL have mirror glass disk, not, ACL have one black disk on film plane and second swinging mirror.
I don'w know other cine cameras with similar design of mechanism.
But, i know many other brand name cine cameras with classical design of mirror disk similar Kinor-16 ( Arri, and other ).

BUT it should be pointed out that the Kinor runs at a non-cyrstal, non-standard (for the U.S., anyway) 25 fps.


This is not correct information about Kinor-16 camera too.
The original motor of Kinor-16 camera can be adjust on speed 24 fps easy at 2-5 sec.
You need take screwdriver and turn of axis of variable resistor by hole from rear side of motor and you can set speed 24 fps. If you will need, i can tell you where this home and what need control of speed of camera.

From other side, the original motor 29EPSS of Kinor-16 camera can be modify on multi speed version and you can order 6 fixed speeds from 12 fps up to 50 fps. This can be speeds for USA TV ( NTSC ) films shooting with speeds 15 fps, 20 fps, 30 fps, 40 fps

The next.
Kinor-16 can have crystal sync motor with one speed 25 fps. This is motor can be modify on version with 24/ 25 fps speeds, with speed 30 fps.

The next.
You can modify original 29EPSS motor of Kinor-16 on multi speed crystal sync speed motor.
This motor can have a few crystal sync speeds :
6.25, 8, 12, 12.5, 15, 16, 16.6, 20, 24, 25, 30, 32, 33,3, 40, 48, 50 fps.

This is list of speeds included speeds for USA ( NTSC ) film shooting, you can use speeds :
8, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 32, 40 fps.

Yes, the camera with electrical motor need battery and charger and other device.
But, after you shoot a few rolls on Krasnogorsk camera and you will have a some discomfort on your hands after re-loading spring of camera, you will think about camera with electrical motor.
I not told, if you will need shoot 5..6 rolls of 400 ft film on every shooting day.
  • 0

#15 Matt Pacini

Matt Pacini
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1246 posts

Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:01 PM

Canon Scoopic M or MS.
  • 0

#16 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:29 PM

I can not agree idea, what Eclair ACL better from Kinor-16.
I have Eclair ACL-1.5 and Kinor-16 cameras and can compare this cameras on practice.
Yes, of course, this is my personal opinion and you can have other opinion.
But, i see mechanism of Eclair and Kinor inside.
ACL have registration pin on trasport mechanism ? not ? Kinor-16 have one transport and one registartion pin.
ACL have mirror glass disk, not, ACL have one black disk on film plane and second swinging mirror.
I don'w know other cine cameras with similar design of mechanism.
But, i know many other brand name cine cameras with classical design of mirror disk similar Kinor-16 ( Arri, and other ).
This is not correct information about Kinor-16 camera too.
The original motor of Kinor-16 camera can be adjust on speed 24 fps easy at 2-5 sec.
You need take screwdriver and turn of axis of variable resistor by hole from rear side of motor and you can set speed 24 fps. If you will need, i can tell you where this home and what need control of speed of camera.

From other side, the original motor 29EPSS of Kinor-16 camera can be modify on multi speed version and you can order 6 fixed speeds from 12 fps up to 50 fps. This can be speeds for USA TV ( NTSC ) films shooting with speeds 15 fps, 20 fps, 30 fps, 40 fps

The next.
Kinor-16 can have crystal sync motor with one speed 25 fps. This is motor can be modify on version with 24/ 25 fps speeds, with speed 30 fps.

The next.
You can modify original 29EPSS motor of Kinor-16 on multi speed crystal sync speed motor.
This motor can have a few crystal sync speeds :
6.25, 8, 12, 12.5, 15, 16, 16.6, 20, 24, 25, 30, 32, 33,3, 40, 48, 50 fps.

This is list of speeds included speeds for USA ( NTSC ) film shooting, you can use speeds :
8, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 32, 40 fps.

Yes, the camera with electrical motor need battery and charger and other device.
But, after you shoot a few rolls on Krasnogorsk camera and you will have a some discomfort on your hands after re-loading spring of camera, you will think about camera with electrical motor.
I not told, if you will need shoot 5..6 rolls of 400 ft film on every shooting day.


I didn't say the ACL is "better" than the Kinor, although my ACL worked from the day I got it without the need for modification. I'm not clear about turning the control of a variable resistor on the Kinor's motor to obtain 24fps (this is the first I've heard of it) but even if this works, the speed won't be locked in as with a crystal. As you indicate, the Kinor must be modified in order to shoot at 24fps (or any other speed) crystal locked. The original poster was thinking of spending up to or around $1,000, and I believe the modifications you're talking about would put the overall price much higher than that.

All ACLs have crystal sync motors, with the most rudimentary being a single speed 24fps (U.S. standard sync speed) or 25fps (European standard). My particular motor is a Tobin TXM-25A, with, I think, eight crystal-locked speeds, and a provision for a controller that will allow me to specify any oddball speed I choose (such as 23.976fps or 29.970, for video transfer).

The ACL does not have a registration pin, which is one reason it's generally a quieter running camera than the Kinor. A registration pin is not a prerequisite for steady filming; the Aaton, regarded by many as the steadiest-shooting 16mm production camera on the planet, doesn't have a registration pin either.

The ACL has a separate mirror and shutter, an unusual approach which made it possible to design a very small camera. On the Kinor, the mirror is the shutter. Neither design approach is necessarily better.

I actually like the Kinor quite a bit, and as I've said, I thought about getting one before I decided on an ACL. Since then, I've seen a number of Kinors advertised on Ebay at very good prices. The ACL is not everyone's cup of tea - a lot of people love 'em or hate 'em - but I made my commitment and have put together a pretty comprehensive kit. I could have just as easily gone for the Kinor, although at the time I had never handled one myself, and buying one would have been an act of faith. Also, because I really needed, at a minimum 24fps crystal sync, I would have been shipping my camera off to Europe for an expensive modification right off the bat. One nice thing about the Kinor, however, is the cool 10-100 zoom you often see packaged with it, along with a .75x wide angle adapter which effectively gives you a 7.5mm to 75mm zoom. Sweet.
  • 0

#17 Max Lundberg

Max Lundberg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Europe

Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:45 PM

Bolex, K3 or Kiev UE.

I can not agree idea, what Eclair ACL better from Kinor-16.
But, i see mechanism of Eclair and Kinor inside.
ACL have registration pin on trasport mechanism ? not ? Kinor-16 have one transport and one registartion pin.
ACL have mirror glass disk, not, ACL have one black disk on film plane and second swinging mirror.

Some people really have gone nuts with registrations pins over here.
It's just one way to hold film, like pressure plate. Kinor has short pressure plate, so it needs registration pin. ACL has longer pressure plate. NPR has both, but I don't know does it really help anything. Aaton XTR doesn't have reg pin and it has steadiest movement of any 16mm camera. As you all know, there's no registration pins in Spirit or other telecines.

Let's anyway do some more comparing (even though NPR would be more similar to compare with kinor)
The oscillating mirror of ACL is remarkable, even though it's not as popular as mirror shutter. Kinor's mirror shutter cuts the aperture vertically, ACL plate shutter cuts horizontally(more optimum). Plate shutter blocks all the light. ACL has inside filter holder.
Lens mount of kinor is it's own. ACL has C-mount and because of that, you can easily get adapter for any lens mount, including PL, nikon, cameflex, arri bayonet/standard, etc.
Kinor's noise level is 42dB, ACL's noise level is 32dB. ACL is factory build with crystal sync.
Kinor is cheaper to buy, but after getting the crystal sync modification for it, difference is not that big anymore. And if you need other lenses for kinor, you have to convert lens mount, not cheap either.

Don't get me wrong, I like kinor, it's a good camera. And ACL is good too. But these are not under $350.

edit: too late, i'm just repeating everything what Ian already said.

Edited by Max Lundberg, 30 June 2006 - 06:49 PM.

  • 0

#18 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 01 July 2006 - 07:24 AM

I didn't say the ACL is "better" than the Kinor, although my ACL worked from the day I got it without the need for modification. I'm not clear about turning the control of a variable resistor on the Kinor's motor to obtain 24fps (this is the first I've heard of it)


Hi All.
What camera better, Kinor-16 or ACL not distinction in kind.
Kinor have one better sides, ACL have other better sides.
The every film maker choose best camera for personal use.

The original Kinor-16 electrical motor 29EPSS have analog system of speed stabilization ( 2.5 %).
The signal from feed back of motor compare with etalon voltage and electronics control of motor speed.
If you turn of variable resistor, you change volume of etalon voltage and change speed too.
The set of 24 fps very easy. Send me letter on my e-mail olex@a-teleport.com and i will send you picture, what hole you need use. You not need take to pieces of motor or camera, this is hole from outside of motor.

The modification of 29EPSS motor on multi speed version with analog system of speed stabilization can have 6 fixed speeds and have price 150 Euros.
The more high level of modifications with digital voltmeter and variable speed handle 250 Euros.
If you need high precision of speed control ( +/-0.01% ) you need crystal sync speed control.
The modification of 29EPSS motor on crystal sync speed with 6, 10, 16 speeds have price from 300 Euros.

I have Tobin crystal sync motor with my Eclair ACL 1.5 too.

About registration pins, yes, the camera without registration pin can have good volume of frame stability, but, the camera with registration pin have more high volume of frame stability.
Kinor have 0.01 mm.
The long or short clampin plate not have big influence on stability.
The transport pin moving of film, the clamping plate to fix of film only.
The volume of stability have stability of film stop point of transport pin ( without registration pin ).
If the mechanism have registration pin, the volume of stability give you stability of position of registration pin.
You know any precision of 35 mm cine camera without registration pins ?
The high precision and high speed cameras have 2 or 4 registration pins.
I have not technical characteristics of West cameras, but, i can tell a some about russian 35 mm cameras.
Konvas have not registration pin have frame stability 0.02 mm
Kinor-35 H have one registration pin - 0.01 mm
Drugba ( Mitchell style mechanism ) have two registration pins - 0.01 mm
PSK-29 ( fixed pin plate ) have 4 pins - 0.007 mm.

From theoretically side, The graph of moving of transport pin of mechanism, have point with not high stability of stop of film ( point of exposing of film ), that's why, the designer to use of registration pin for correction of position of frame. The registration pin have dimension " correction move of frame ".


Yes, the original desing of shutter disk of ACL need for receive a short flange focal distance of lens mount.
ACL have 17. 53 mm. Kinor-16 52.00 mm.
But, I don't know other 16 mm cine cameras with similar design of ACL shutter.
My supposition, The design of ACL camera go from design of not reflex cine camera, that's why swinging mirror.
I know not history of Eclair cameras.

The russian 16 mm cine camera Kiev-16 E have swinging style of mirror too. The other cameras use mirror disk design.
I can not confirm, what design of shutter disk better, but, my personal opinion, the mirror disk - better.

You can see, I have ACL 1.5 and Kinor-16 cameras too and i use Eclair and kinor.
I wish give more technical information only.
For note. My Eclair ACL have adapter for set OPF zoom and prime lenses with CA mount.
I have 10-150 mm Angenueux, but, not use.
I use 16 OPF-12 10-100 mm zoom lens, 6 mm , 25 mm, 50 mm, 100 mm, 150 mm prime lenses of OKS with Eclair and Kinor-16.
I use Canon 12-120 mm with Eclair, because, this zoom lens have CA mount.
I love Eclair camera too.

About 10-100 mm zoom lens with and without 0.75 wide adapter and 6 mm super wide prime lens.
The russian 16 OPF-1-2M 12-120 mm zoom lens have very good quality of image too.
This lens can have 0.75 wide adapter too.

I make a some test. I take Kinor and measuring of width of subject shooting from distance of 1.5 m from camera.
The 10-100 zoom lens on 10 mm position show me width 1.2 m
The 10-100 zoom lens with 0.75 wide adapter, 7.5 mm show me 1.55 m
The 6 mm super wide lens have width 2.7 m
The Elcair with Peleng 8 mm have picture with 2.15 m

For example
Krasnorgosk-3 with 17-69 mm zoom lens , on 1.5 m distance had:
position of zoom 17 mm - picture width 0.7 m
position of zoom 25 mm - 0.57 m
position of zoom 69 mm - 0.19 m.

The user of Kransogrosk-3 can compare meteor zoom lens and 10-100 zoom lens.
  • 0

#19 Max Lundberg

Max Lundberg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Europe

Posted 01 July 2006 - 09:31 AM

1. the camera with registration pin have more high volume of frame stability.
Kinor have 0.01 mm.
2. The long or short clampin plate not have big influence on stability.
3. You know any precision of 35 mm cine camera without registration pins ?
PSK-29 ( fixed pin plate ) have 4 pins - 0.007 mm.
4. My supposition, The design of ACL camera go from design of not reflex cine camera, that's why swinging mirror.

1. Well no. ACL 0.010mm and XTR 0.005mm. Arri SRII 0.013mm.
2. It depends on design of the camera.
3. I wouldn't compare 16mm with 35mm, because a lot of things change, but yes, Aaton 35-III. Again 0.005mm.
4. I don't think so, since ACL is follower of NPR.
  • 0

#20 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 01 July 2006 - 01:14 PM

4. I don't think so, since ACL is follower of NPR.


---Also the Cameflex/CM3, which has the same sort of mirror shutter.
One can see taht those shutters are a lot larger than the ACL mirror and shutter.
Obviously the design is for small size.The Beaulieu uses a similar shutter/mirror arrangement.
Their's might be a guillotine rather than a pendulem.

---LV
  • 0


The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Willys Widgets

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

FJS International, LLC

Wooden Camera

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Ritter Battery

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

Tai Audio

CineLab

Technodolly

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

The Slider

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Tai Audio

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

Willys Widgets

Opal

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

CineTape

FJS International, LLC