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#1 Arnaud M. St Martin de Veyran

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 11:57 AM

Hi Guys,

I'm actully pre-producing a short film on S16mm that will be shot only outside during the months of August.

It's gonna be very warm and hot and the sun will be very high in the sky and strong but it's the look we want ! We're not gonna shoot under the shade.

Anyway, my goal is to used only natural lighting such as Frame(6"x6" for example) and Reflector.

I'm wondering what anyone can advice me about the kind of Diffusion and Reflections materials they will use. There is so many : Spy, Silk, Matflector...
What's the difference between all of them ?

Also, i'm wondering what's the best as conversion filters ? I'm gonna shoot with the Kodak 50D.
Coral, 85, 80 ?

Any advices will be help full.

Here, attach, a pics of the location.

Edited by arno, 02 July 2006 - 11:58 AM.

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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 12:26 PM

I don't see any pics attached.

Well, if you want hard overhead sunlight, then why do you need large frames of diffusion?

But just in case you feel you need some slight softening, my favorite is Half Soft Frost, which is very light, like Opal. You only lose about a 1/3 to 1/2 of a stop under it, so the person doesn't look darker than the background, unlike Silk. It also doesn't look as obvious as Silk when someone has to walk out from under the frame into the light (even so, what I like to do is clip leafy tree branches to the frame so that you see a shadow pattern of leaves rather than the frame.)

However, I would still carry Silk as well -- sometimes you need the heavier diffusion and it's quieter in a wind.

In terms of bounce material, UltraBounce to me is better than Griflon, which is too shiny although more durable. Bleached Muslin is also a good bounce material, softer (or less efficient) than UltraBounce or a Griflon. For throwing the light farther, you may also want something even shinier though, like Silver Lame.

You may want both a 6'x6' set and something a little larger, like a 12'x12'. 6'x6' is just big enough to cover a single medium-to-close-up if the person and camera isn't moving. A 12'x12' will over two people and allow a little movement.
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#3 Arnaud M. St Martin de Veyran

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 05:36 PM

Dear David and all that are following the topic,

That's true, i want a very harshy and contrasty look but i'm still looking for softening the sun. I'm thinking some times to bounce some of it to fill in the shadows that i will cast during the day.

So, as you said i'm looking for some slight softening and i like your idea of Soft Frost.
I'm feeling the same about the Silver Lame.
After your post, I've checked Matthews website :D

By the way, i didn't know that bleach muslim was a reflective material :huh:
Can you tell me more about it ?

Now, that i can get an idea of what kind of frame i'll use (6'x6' & 12'x12' ; yesterday i didn't know the conversion foot :rolleyes: ) i'm wondering wich type of filter i will need...

I know that the sun in summer is more than 6 000°K during the day if i don't have any clouds in the sky. So, i looked at all my filters table and i could notice that with a 85 or 81 series i will be able to warm up a bit the whole image and maybe to keep a continuity on kelvin closer to 5600°K (my stock : Kodak Vision 2 50D). Do i'm wright ?

If yes, i'll do that but i'm wondering if i would need to do a grey scale/card everytime i'm changing the correction (the filter) ?


I think it's time to go to bed for me now.
It's late and fu**in warm here in Paris.

See u tomorrow.

Thanks in advance.




I finaly upload the pic !

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#4 Michael Nash

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:56 PM

By the way, i didn't know that bleach muslim was a reflective material :huh:
Can you tell me more about it ?


I don't know where you're going to get a bleached Muslim, but I can't imagine he'd be very happy about it... :P

Kidding aside, Muslin is a coarse fabric that lets some light through (diffusing as it transmits), and bounces back some as well. Muslin is made of cotton fiber that has a warm natural color, so there is unbleached muslin (tan in color), and bleached muslin (white).

If you're planning on color-timing your print or transferring your film footage to video, you don't really need to use color correction filters with daylight film in overcast conditions. But you could use a slight warming filter if you wanted to preserve as much red saturation as possible. A gray card will only help if you're going to do some kind of color correction anyway.

And it's bloody hot here in Pasadena...
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 07:28 PM

I don't know where you're going to get a bleached Muslim, but I can't imagine he'd be very happy about it... :P
Kidding aside, Muslin is a coarse fabric


Sorry, I sometimes get that wrong.
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#6 Hal Smith

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 07:54 PM

the frame into the light (even so, what I like to do is clip leafy tree branches to the frame so that you see a shadow pattern of leaves rather than the frame.)

Nice touch! If it's original with you, it should be called "Mullening the frame".
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#7 Michael Nash

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 09:59 PM

Sorry, I sometimes get that wrong.


Actually you spelled it right in your post. It was Arno's typo.

Either way it was a joke of opportunity, not directed at anyone... :D
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#8 Bob Hayes

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 11:41 AM

When shooting out side on a limited budget this is my formula. One 8? x 8? Hi Light with a ¼? grid cloth, one 6? x 6? Hi Light with a ¼? grid cloth, two reflectors. One 4? x 4? soft frost, and two 4? x 4? bead board bounces. When back lit, preferred, the Hi-Light works like a wall and you shine two reflectors through it. When front lit the 8? x 8? goes over the cast the one reflector goes through the 6? x 6?. The other reflector is a soft back edge through the 4? x4? 250. The bounce boards are used hand held for back edges or fill.
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#9 timHealy

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:40 PM

I read an interesting interview a while back with John Toll who recommending not doing the typical wide shot medium shot close up work in that order when dealing with shooting outside when the sun was high. He advocates shooting your close ups first when the sun was low in the morning, and last when the sun was low in the evening, and shooting your wide shots during the middle of the day.

In the normal scheme of things, by the time you do your close ups. you may wind up shooting exactly at the time you don't want to. So his method corrects it.

I think it is terrific advice if your schedule will permit it.

Best

Tim
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#10 G McMahon

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:15 AM

Mr. Hayes,
What is a 8? x 8? Hi Light? Is it a 8' by 8' frame and stand? And you also mention "two reflectors", is that the heavy metal type, or is that you saying the total of the two "Hi lights"?

"One 8? x 8? Hi Light with a ¼? grid cloth, one 6? x 6? Hi Light with a ¼? grid cloth, two reflectors. One 4? x 4? soft frost, and two 4? x 4? bead board"

Thanks,
Graeme
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#11 Arnaud M. St Martin de Veyran

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:41 AM

Thanks Guys !

Bob1DP, that's pretty damned good advice that you gave me.
I'm gonna also work on the idea of John Toll, thanks heel_e ;)

Otherwise, i'm wondering, what's the interest of Coral Filter when shooting outside ?
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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:17 PM

Otherwise, i'm wondering, what's the interest of Coral Filter when shooting outside ?


To warm up the image.
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#13 Bob Hayes

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 08:38 PM

What is a 8? x 8? Hi Light? Is it a 8' by 8' frame and stand? And you also mention "two reflectors", is that the heavy metal type, or is that you saying the total of the two "Hi lights"?


Hi Lite is a translucent soft vinyl like diffusion material made by Roscoe. I like it because it diffuses sunlight with out affecting the brightness of the sun as much as other materials. I'd use it in an 8'x8' frame with stands. That was two metal and foil 4? x ?4 reflectors.

I read an interesting interview a while back with John Toll who recommending not doing the typical wide shot medium shot close up work in that order when dealing with shooting outside when the sun was high. He advocates shooting your close ups first when the sun was low in the morning, and last when the sun was low in the evening, and shooting your wide shots during the middle of the day.


With regards to John Toll?s approach I would take exactly the opposite approach. I would shoot my wide shots with the lower more modeled sunlight and fix the lighting on the close ups where it is more controllable.
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#14 Matt Workman

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:47 PM

I'd shoot the whole thing green screen... :D

I agree that shooting the wide shots with the light how you intend it makes sense. So for you, shoot the wide shots at high noon. Then do the closer shots later when you can pull out the big lights and frames to cheat.

I've also seen 4x4 mirrors used to direct some hard light, but its a little tricky with moving subjects and the sun.
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