Jump to content


Photo

Shooting B&W with dvx


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Thomas Fant

Thomas Fant
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 02 July 2006 - 03:33 PM

I will be shooting a short horror film next weekend with a dvx 100, and the director wants black and white, so the color wil be removed in post. Anyone done this before ? Any special secrets I should know, besides basic stuff like shooting with a red filter to show clouds ? It seems like it will be pretty straight forward, I was just wondering if anyone has had good or bad experiences with this type of thing ?
  • 0

#2 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 02 July 2006 - 04:39 PM

I will be shooting a short horror film next weekend with a dvx 100, and the director wants black and white, so the color wil be removed in post. Anyone done this before ? Any special secrets I should know, besides basic stuff like shooting with a red filter to show clouds ? It seems like it will be pretty straight forward, I was just wondering if anyone has had good or bad experiences with this type of thing ?


I've done it with the SDX900 and other video systems. Definitely monitor in B&W (just turn the chroma down on the monitor). Let your eye be your judge of the image.
  • 0

#3 freddie bonfanti

freddie bonfanti
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 315 posts
  • Gaffer
  • LONDON

Posted 02 July 2006 - 05:39 PM

hey

when i shot the big forever i shot it in bw (.http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=14486)..i preferred to achieve the best bw quality on the spot. i always think that when you light for bw you need to see the picture in bw, i cant do it in color. its just my idea but in my (small) experience it always worked. its like if bw has got its own texture that color doesnt have, therefore id suggest you to shoot it in bw in camera

good luck

freddy
  • 0

#4 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 02 July 2006 - 05:53 PM

when i shot the big forever i shot it in bw (.http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=14486)..i preferred to achieve the best bw quality on the spot. i always think that when you light for bw you need to see the picture in bw, i cant do it in color. its just my idea but in my (small) experience it always worked. its like if bw has got its own texture that color doesnt have, therefore id suggest you to shoot it in bw in camera


Can the DVX do B&W in camera? I didn't think it could.

I agree about lighting and monitoring in B&W, but if the camera can't desaturate internally then B&W monitoring is the next best thing.
  • 0

#5 Hans Kellner

Hans Kellner
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Other
  • Northern California

Posted 02 July 2006 - 10:15 PM

Can the DVX do B&W in camera? I didn't think it could.

True. The DVX can't fully desaturate in camera.

Also, you should play with the scene settings to crush your blacks and bring the color down.

Try:

1. master ped way down (-8)
2. detail down (-3) and vdetail down (-2)
3. gamma low
4. knee low
5. matrix normal
6. chroma level down (-5)

These values are just suggestions from playing with B&W on my DVX. Adjust until you get a L&F that works for you and for your lighting. Oh, and with noir, lighting is so important so don't fudge on that.
  • 0

#6 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 02 July 2006 - 11:57 PM

Try:

1. master ped way down (-8)
2. detail down (-3) and vdetail down (-2)
3. gamma low
4. knee low
5. matrix normal
6. chroma level down (-5)


please dont try that. First the pedistal should not be lowered to get the saturation out (it may have that effect but it would make things much more difficult) same with gama and knee. Its not the sort of settings you should mess with to get the chroma out (especially when post B/W is fine)

I would shoot regular, but with a B/W monitor to preview. Then a cool tip in post is add color correction before adding the desat. I know it sounds weird, but think of it like adding a red filter, it darkens greens and blues right? well with RGB color manipulation prior to BW you can get razor sharp control over the effect. Gives a ton of options.
  • 0

#7 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:15 AM

I agree about simulating colored filters in post, although you could still use filters on the camera if you're more familiar or comfortable with that. Suffice it to say that shooting in "normal" color and normal dynamic range gives you the most amount of information to play with in post.

I also agree about not crushing the blacks in camera, unless you know that's the look you're going to use. The only "fly in the ointment," so to speak, is that increasing the contrast too much after the image has gone through DV25 compression is that it can start to reveal artifacts like noise and banding of gradients. I think a reasonable approach for increasing contrast with a highly compressed format is to adjust the image "half way" in camera and the rest of the way in post. That way you're not completely limited by either the camera or post.
  • 0

#8 Peter J DeCrescenzo

Peter J DeCrescenzo
  • Sustaining Members
  • 620 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Portland, OR, USA www.peterdv.com Blog: http://herefortheweather.wordpress.com/

Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:49 AM

I will be shooting a short horror film next weekend with a dvx 100, and the director wants black and white, so the color wil be removed in post. Anyone done this before ? Any special secrets I should know, besides basic stuff like shooting with a red filter to show clouds ? It seems like it will be pretty straight forward, I was just wondering if anyone has had good or bad experiences with this type of thing ?

In addition to the good advice here, just in case it hasn't already been mentioned: Especially if you plan to perform in-camera "special effects" (e.g.: B&W, and so forth), you won't be able to judge results using the camera's built-in LCD screen or viewfinder.

Much, much more accurate than these would be a properly-calibrated, professional, CRT monitor. In general, CRT monitors are much more accurate than LCD monitors, unless you use an LCD which costs several thousands of dollars (and even then ...). As previously suggested, you may choose to turn down (or turn off) the monitor's color (chroma) control, but otherwise the monitor should be calibrated correctly at all times.
  • 0

#9 Hans Kellner

Hans Kellner
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Other
  • Northern California

Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:14 PM

please dont try that. First the pedistal should not be lowered to get the saturation out (it may have that effect but it would make things much more difficult) same with gama and knee. Its not the sort of settings you should mess with to get the chroma out (especially when post B/W is fine)

Yes, I agree to not attempt to remove saturation in camera. My settings recommendations above are to adjust the image so that the blacks will not appear milky and the image, when desaturated in post, will look good. These settings are based on my experience with the camera and creating B&W in post.

But, I may have goofed and been able to create better results :( Will experiment again at some point in time.
  • 0

#10 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 03 July 2006 - 07:05 PM

But, I may have goofed and been able to create better results :( Will experiment again at some point in time.


It is always a matter of fine-tuning the controls involved for the desired result. There's no single, definitive procedure that will work in all situations, for all desired results.
  • 0


FJS International, LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

Opal

CineTape

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Technodolly

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

Metropolis Post

Aerial Filmworks

Opal

Willys Widgets

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Technodolly

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Ritter Battery

CineTape