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Using a Safe light to Respool 16mm stock


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#1 Kirk Anderson

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 04:11 PM

I picked up this little light at a garage sale for $3...... I was wondering if it would work to mount on the inside of my walk in closet, so I could see while i respool 400' rolls fo 16mm into 100', or spool old recans, for my bolex. Says "Kodak Safelight....filter no.1A"
would this be safe for my idea or should i just mount it on the wall by my editing suite for fun?

kirk
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#2 Kar Wai Ng

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 04:37 PM

Bad idea. This safelight is meant for black and white darkroom use (for printmaking), and should also be safe for orthographic sheet film.

Motion picture films, whether colour or black and white, should never be exposed to a safelight; it will fog.
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#3 John Mastrogiacomo

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 04:58 PM

I picked up this little light at a garage sale for $3...... I was wondering if it would work to mount on the inside of my walk in closet, so I could see while i respool 400' rolls fo 16mm into 100', or spool old recans, for my bolex. Says "Kodak Safelight....filter no.1A"
would this be safe for my idea or should i just mount it on the wall by my editing suite for fun?

kirk


You have to have it completely dark for 16mm film. The light you bought is for developing paper prints. :(
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#4 Kirk Anderson

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:07 PM

thanks guys, it will make a great conversation piece in my house.

kirk
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 09:16 PM

thanks guys, it will make a great conversation piece in my house.

Save it, You can use it as a very dim light to load a camera with daylight spools, just to see SOMTHING without enough light to cause problems if my re-spooled film is not scatter wound - although th e1A filter is not all that common. FOr black and white prints you normaly use an "OC" or "OA" (or an ILFORD 902)
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#6 Clive Tobin

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:05 PM

You have to have it completely dark for 16mm film. The light you bought is for developing paper prints. :(

Actually the 1A is a red filter used for handling orthochromatic films, such as the now discontinued Eastman 7360 and 7361 reversal dupe stock, or ortho sound recording film. It is a bit dim for B&W paper prints where the OA is used for ordinary blue-sensitive papers and OC for the semi-ortho variable contrast papers.
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#7 Mark Dunn

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 03:36 AM

Black and white paper only has to be blue sensitive- after all, it's only recording shades of grey from a B/W negative. hence the red safelight to which it is insensitive. Camera film has to record all the colours in a scene, so it's panchromatic, with no gap in its sensitivity for a safelight. You could use it for B/W print stock, though- that's blue sensitive like paper.
The only safelight ever recommended for colour printing paper was a deep olive green and very faint. Camera film is of the order of a hundred times faster, so forget safelights altogether.
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#8 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 08:02 AM

Yes, panchromatic B&W camera films and color camera films must be handled in TOTAL DARKNESS. If you have enough light to see the film, the film will "see" the light too, and be fogged.
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#9 Filip Plesha

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 08:20 AM

It's a red light. if you can see it, color film can see it.

I always found funny those kodak warnings about not using a safelight, I didn't think people would actually consider using it
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#10 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 08:25 AM

Yes, panchromatic B&W camera films and color camera films must be handled in TOTAL DARKNESS. If you have enough light to see the film, the film will "see" the light too, and be fogged.

Has anyone ever tried using far infrared light and something like a Hughes Probeye camera?
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#11 Filip Plesha

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:26 AM

Film is sensitive far beyond the visible light, at least in the direction of higher frequencies than light, it captures UV and x-rays, possibly gamma rays (can anyone confirm?) , but I don't know if it works in the other direction (infrared).
Try putting a 120 roll (because it has no metal) into the microwave and see if it gets exposed. If it does, then it will be sensitive to IR too, because microwaves have even lower frequency than IR

lol, or maybe you can just ask someone who knows for sure
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:43 AM

Here is the published spectral sensitivity curve of Kodak VISION2 500T Color Negative Film 5218:

Posted Image

Most films have some "native" sensitivity to ultraviolet light (below 400 nanometers).

Most color films have only a small amount of sensitivity in the infrared, beyond 700 nanometers, but a few can be sensitive to infrared energy as far out as 730 nanometers, such as 2383:

Posted Image
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#13 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:47 AM

Film is sensitive far beyond the visible light, at least in the direction of higher frequencies than light, it captures UV and x-rays, possibly gamma rays (can anyone confirm?) , but I don't know if it works in the other direction (infrared).
Try putting a 120 roll (because it has no metal) into the microwave and see if it gets exposed. If it does, then it will be sensitive to IR too, because microwaves have even lower frequency than IR

lol, or maybe you can just ask someone who knows for sure

Does my MS in the Teaching of Physics count as someone who knows?

A microwave oven doesn't have enough photon energy within about 10 orders of magnitude to fog film - it may cook it but it won't fog it.

UV, xray, and gamma radiation all have high energy photons and most definitely will fog film - particularly gamma and xrays since they'll go right through any normal light shielding - UV won't.

Far infrared is heat radiation - well below near infrared which will probably fog most films.

A Probeye is a special video system running a cryogenically cooled sensor that can image far infrared - the very fact that it takes a pretty trick sensor to see far infrared gave me the idea that it might not fog film.

Film storage problems hint at the fact that there may be an issue with film and far infrared, whether or not film degradation with uncooled storage is a chemical or a photon radiation issue is the sort of thing the lab scientists at Kodak probably know about. It's also the sort of thing Kodak has probably spent a lot of research money on that they would be reluctant to publish, giving away the fruits of their hard work to their competition.

Hal Smith, MS in the Teaching of Physics
Member, Institute of Electronics and Electrical Engineers
Engineering Consultant, The University of Central Oklahoma
Owner, AM/FM Services Company
(I just love playing the credential name, too bad I'll probably never be an ASC) :D

John, just saw your post, thanks for the information - you rock!

PS: Microwave ovens don't heat things by radiation, they operate at a frequency that resonates with the electrical dipole moment of water thereby transducing electromagnetic radiation to mechanical vibrations. Think of it as little water molecule antennas being vibrated by the microwaves passing by them. Heat is mechanical vibration at the molecular/atomic level. Oh, did I mention I did my graduate thesis in microwave spectroscopy?
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#14 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:09 PM

Hi,

This is also why your microwave doesn't turn the conventional Iodine-90 in your food into I-131, or generally make your food more likely to convert you into Super Radioactive Man.

Which is a good thing.

Phil
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#15 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

This is also why your microwave doesn't turn the conventional Iodine-90 in your food into I-131, or generally make your food more likely to convert you into Super Radioactive Man.

Which is a good thing.

Phil

Which is also why your cellphone probably isn't turning your DNA into Godzilla spore. (leaving aside the issue of cellular heating which >might< be a concern).
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#16 Filip Plesha

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:25 PM

Does my MS in the Teaching of Physics count as someone who knows?

A microwave oven doesn't have enough photon energy within about 10 orders of magnitude to fog film - it may cook it but it won't fog it.

UV, xray, and gamma radiation all have high energy photons and most definitely will fog film - particularly gamma and xrays since they'll go right through any normal light shielding - UV won't.

Far infrared is heat radiation - well below near infrared which will probably fog most films.

A Probeye is a special video system running a cryogenically cooled sensor that can image far infrared - the very fact that it takes a pretty trick sensor to see far infrared gave me the idea that it might not fog film.

Film storage problems hint at the fact that there may be an issue with film and far infrared, whether or not film degradation with uncooled storage is a chemical or a photon radiation issue is the sort of thing the lab scientists at Kodak probably know about. It's also the sort of thing Kodak has probably spent a lot of research money on that they would be reluctant to publish, giving away the fruits of their hard work to their competition.

Hal Smith, MS in the Teaching of Physics
Member, Institute of Electronics and Electrical Engineers
Engineering Consultant, The University of Central Oklahoma
Owner, AM/FM Services Company
(I just love playing the credential name, too bad I'll probably never be an ASC) :D

John, just saw your post, thanks for the information - you rock!

PS: Microwave ovens don't heat things by radiation, they operate at a frequency that resonates with the electrical dipole moment of water thereby transducing electromagnetic radiation to mechanical vibrations. Think of it as little water molecule antennas being vibrated by the microwaves passing by them. Heat is mechanical vibration at the molecular/atomic level. Oh, did I mention I did my graduate thesis in microwave spectroscopy?



yea, I had someone like you in mind :)

maybe cooked film gives some kind of interesting new look
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#17 Kirk Anderson

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:26 PM

cool red light...
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#18 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 03:33 PM

yea, I had someone like you in mind :)

maybe cooked film gives some kind of interesting new look

Hmmm, maybe a quick look at a Julia Child cookbook will give us some inspiration.

5218 Flambe with Truffles anyone? :D
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