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#1 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:14 PM

Ok, normally I'd ask someone on photo.net, but most of those people only know how to set up anoying B-day party setups with baloons and on camera flash.

So I ask you people who deal with more imaginative lighting.

Here is the thing. I'd like all the tips I can get on getting these thick outlining dark shadows on objects without any fill. For example, if I wanted to shoot people and do this, I'd normally just use one hard light source, but I'd still get some fill, even with reversal film. Is there a way to minimise this to almost zero?
I'd like crushed shadows, sort of like illustrations, but just with lighting, no image processing.

One thing that comes to mind is surrounding the subject with non reflective material, and bringing the source closer

But If I want to avoid visible falloff of light on multiple subjects, I'd rather not bring the light source close. And when I put it away I get less contrast and more fill, so there's the dilema.

So any other tips and ideas? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not very experienced with studio lighting that much
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#2 Chad Stockfleth

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:47 PM

I would think that as you move the source closer it would potentially wrap more as it would become softer.

The less reflective their surroundings and clothes, the better.

Do you have any photos you could use as an example?
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#3 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:11 PM

Ok, here is something like what I had in mind. This is is a photo by Philip Lorca Dicorcia from his "Heads" exibit and book

http://deutsche-boer...ia3_518x413.jpg

I can see that its a rather contrasty rendering too, but the light also seems to lack the fill I get in a closed room that bounces around.
This one is taken on the street, so naturally there is less bounce and less fill.
So what I'm aiming is getting this kind of lighting contrast in a closed room.
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#4 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:43 PM

What's causing the fill is the presence of surfaces for the light to bounce off of. That photograph is shot in a place where there is basically nothing around the subjects for the light to hit. So to do this on your own, you would need to very carefully control your production design to ensure that the space surrounding your subjects is either empty or very dark. Also keep tight control over your lighting to ensure that light only falls on your subjects and not on the background.

I suppose you could also shoot your subjects against a bluescreen and comp them into the environment, though I suppose this would have a pretty high chance of looking unnatural.
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#5 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:54 PM

Scott, oh, I forgot to mention, I'm not a cinematographer, but a still photographer (that's what I said what I said about asking on photo.net first or lack of that action), so there is no "production design" involved, nor green screen.
Though I do get what you mean. Maybe a kind of a spotlight on the subjects would reduce the fill?
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:58 PM

The best you can do is use a strong single source that is bright enough to overpower ambient natural light, keep the light confined to the areas in the frame you want to hit to reduce unwanted bounceback, use negative fill to reduce bounce fill, and add contrast in choice of stock and how you handle it in post.
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#7 Michael Nash

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:00 PM

Are you just trying to get the shadows darker? Then yes, you need to eliminate the fill light that contaminates the fill side. You can try using "negative fill" -- basically any black surface that flags off ambient light and doesn't reflect any light on its own. You usually need a very large surface close to the subject to kill all the ambient light. And of course the closer your exposure is to the ambient light level, the harder that becomes.

But to go further you would need some kind of processing alteration, like cross-processed reversal, bleach bypass, or simply push-processing negative.

http://www.cameragui...ting_limits.htm
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#8 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:29 PM

The best you can do is use a strong single source that is bright enough to overpower ambient natural light, keep the light confined to the areas in the frame you want to hit to reduce unwanted bounceback, use negative fill to reduce bounce fill, and add contrast in choice of stock and how you handle it in post.



No ambient light, I'd use this in a controled studio environment



Are you just trying to get the shadows darker?


Yea, just that

But to go further you would need some kind of processing alteration, like cross-processed reversal, bleach bypass, or simply push-processing negative.


Well I do use reversal mostly, so it helps with controling light ratios like that, but I don't want to go too far.
I want the part that is lit by the key to act in a regular way (no blown out highlights), so that's why I'd rather not increase the contrast of the image, bur just increase the ratio of fill and key. There is a difference in look between a contrasty medium and contrasty lighting

This negative fill sounds like a good idea. I'll see what I can do about that

Edited by Filip Plesha, 06 July 2006 - 07:30 PM.

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#9 Igor Trajkovski

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 08:23 PM

I would suggest using negative fill (flags, frames).

Here some pixs i did to demonstrate:

Pix 1
Pix 2 - White Lightbulb - My Light Analizing Tool :)
Pix 3 - Effect on White Object 2
Pix 4


A big black fabric for negative fill VERY near me. ca. 50cm.
One light source.

And/Or your main light to overpower the ambient light.
For how much, will depend by the medium you use (digital, reversal, negative).
A ratio thing.

Then the background may go dark,
(like typically seen in low light conditions, front flash photography)
so adding a background light to "equalize" - come closer to
the front exposure would be required.



Here a Photoflexlightingschool lesson:
Black and White Portrait

And in the following you can find near the end a portrait similar of what you are looking for:
Two OctoDomes Portrait

Usual disclaimer.


Regards

Igor
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#10 saghbini

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:31 PM

Are you just trying to get the shadows darker? Then yes, you need to eliminate the fill light that contaminates the fill side. You can try using "negative fill" -- basically any black surface that flags off ambient light and doesn't reflect any light on its own. You usually need a very large surface close to the subject to kill all the ambient light. And of course the closer your exposure is to the ambient light level, the harder that becomes.

But to go further you would need some kind of processing alteration, like cross-processed reversal, bleach bypass, or simply push-processing negative.

http://www.cameragui...ting_limits.htm



sorry but what is the negative fill ??
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#11 Igor Trajkovski

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:05 PM

sorry but what is the negative fill ??



You mean what are the tools used for negative fill?

It could be frames. The same one used for diffusion.
Instead with diffuse or bounce material you put on a black material.

It could be black cardboards, foamcore painted black,
black drape/cloth hanging on wire, on wall, on backdrop holder....

Dedicated flags or cutters like:

http://www.matthewsg...p...cat=54&pg=1



The idea is to prevent light hitting the subject and not reflecting any back.

So the side preventing light hitting the subject directly could be any color and reflectivity but opaque.
The other side should be non-reflective - black.


Here a link with use of negative fill:
Color of Reflector equals Color of Reflection
Using_Digital_White_Balance_Outdoors - Outdoor Portrait

California Sunbounce - 1
California Sunbounce - 2



Usual disclaimer.



Regards

Igor Trajkovski
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#12 Igor Trajkovski

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:16 PM

So the side preventing light hitting the subject directly could be any color and reflectivity but opaque.
The other side should be non-reflective - black.


PS: I think i need to "fill" in something:
The other side, facing the subject, should be non-reflective - black.

Regards

Igor Trajkovski

Edited by Igor Trajkovski, 11 July 2006 - 09:18 PM.

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