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What do you think ?


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#1 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:02 PM

For a single copy of a video shot in 24 progressive in HD or HDV.

1. Shoot positive stills off an HD LCD monitor(21inch) to evaluate colour and exposure
of key scenes, or where appropiate. Project those stills on a big wall.

2. Make colour and other corrections on the video.

3. Load a film camera with positive film enough to cover the video's lenght.

4. Shoot the video in a light sealed chamber using similar set up as the still camera
in terms of ISO and exposure and lens.

5. Send positive along with a CD sound track to the lab.

6. Pray for it.

Alexandre 'there must be a way out' Lucena
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:05 PM

Just remember that a minute of a 35mm movie has 1440 frames... 10 minutes is 14,400 frames...

That's pretty time-consuming to do manually.

Plus a 35mm still camera shoots 8-perf horizontal, not 4-perf vertical.
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#3 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:23 PM

Steve,

The stills are for colour and exposure evaluation only. The video is to be shot with a 35mm
movie camera off a LCD monitor in real time not frame by fame.

Alexandre

David,

The stills are for colour and exposure evaluation only. The video is to be shot with a 35mm
movie camera off a LCD monitor in real time not frame by fame.

Alexandre

David,

The stills are for colour and exposure evaluation only. The video is to be shot with a 35mm
movie camera off a LCD monitor in real time not frame by fame.

Alexandre
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:24 PM

Not sure how useful the stills would be unless you were using movie film stock in them and then printed them on movie print stock and projected them as slides, and the company that used to provide that service, RGB Labs, went out of business.

I think you'd be better off timing the movie digitally as close as possible, putting a gray scale / color chart at the head of the movie, and shooting tests of that chart displayed on the LCD screen on the 35mm movie camera to check the contrast / color. Then at least the lab would have a chart that they could time to.
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#5 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:36 PM

Color chart that is right. Is there perf. issues related to positive stock being the same in capture and the final
projection.
What stock do you think would be better for a medium contrast.
What SLR still stock and processing would be closer to motion picture one.

BTW I plan to do it at home. Except the processing and on. Remember this a poor man's way.

Alexandre
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:42 PM

You'd want to shoot it in a 35mm sound aperture format like standard 1.85 so that the prints could be contact-printed with a soundtrack applied -- as opposed to using 3-perf or Full Aperture.

The 35mm still stocks don't match 35mm motion picture neg and paper prints won't tell you much either. I think you have to shoot the tests on a 35mm movie camera.

If you use still camera film stock and make paper prints, you might as well just shoot digital stills, it would be about as informative, i.e. only give you a rough idea.
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#7 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:59 PM

The stills would be positive slides. Regarding length is there any problem splicing the whole thing
together in the end for the final copy ?
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 01:12 PM

The stills would be positive slides. Regarding length is there any problem splicing the whole thing
together in the end for the final copy ?


Not if it's done correctly...

You have to remember that 35mm is printed in reels, either 1000' or 2000' depending on the lab.
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#9 Hal Smith

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 01:27 PM

Not if it's done correctly...
You have to remember that 35mm is printed in reels, either 1000' or 2000' depending on the lab.

Does anyone develop snippets of 5285 for tests?
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 01:41 PM

Does anyone develop snippets of 5285 for tests?


'85 is an E6 reversal film so any E6 still processor will work if the "snippets" are in cassettes.

But something like E6 Ektachrome 160T is probably a little closer to the look of negative stocks.
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#11 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:45 AM

I have made some changes to the guide.

For a single copy of a video shot in 24 progressive in HD or HDV.

1. Shoot positive snippets of 5285 stills off an HD LCD monitor(21inch) to evaluate colour and exposure
of key scenes, or where appropiate. Project those stills on a big wall. The snippets can be processed E6
at your local photo lab.

2. Make colour and other corrections on the video.

2.1 Put a gray scale / color chart at the head of the video
2.2 Shoot a separate test of gray scale / color chart. The lab will use this seperate test as a reference
for timing the MASTER.

3. Load a film camera with 5285 film stock enough to cover the video's lenght.
3.1 Shoot it in a 35mm sound aperture format like standard 1.85 so that the prints can be contact-printed with a soundtrack applied.

4. Shoot the video in a light sealed chamber using similar set up as the still camera
in terms of ISO and exposure and lens.

5. Send positive along with a CD sound track to the lab.

I still have some questions.

The same roll of 5285 used for capture will be the one used in the theatre projector?
What would the motion rendition of a print like this be like ?
What sound care should one take to avoid sound sync errors?
How should the light metering off the LCD monitor be taken?
I read 5285 is day light stock is that ok for an LCD?

Alexandre
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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:07 PM

You can't use 5285 because it's an E6 reversal stock -- if you want something to make prints on, it needs to be a negative stock. Unless you cross-process 5285 into a negative, but that will create bizaare colors and super high contrast.

Otherwise if you film this out onto 5285 and end up with a positive image, you'd have to make an optical printer dupe onto a 35mm IN for the whole movie, and the contrast would be unnaturally high.

Typically for copying a movie off of a screen for a film-out, like a CRT recorder does, a slow daylight color negative film would be used like Kodak 50D or 250D. Although if you are going to run the camera at 24 fps for the transfer, then you may have to use 250D.

You could transfer this to 5285 and project the original, but it would be silent. You can't add an optical soundtrack after the fact. And even if you wanted to use DTS instead and run sound separately on a CD, the trouble is that you wouldn't have the DTS time code on the edge of the image to sync it with the DTS player. Plus projecting 5285 directly is not particularly safe -- it could get ruined by the projectionist and it would be your only copy. Plus I believe it would be on acetate, not Estar.
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#13 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:12 PM

So we can not skip the negative. That is going to increase costs. I hope Kodak launches an Estar
250D positive stock that can be printed with optical sound track. I believe low budget indie preducers
would apreciate it.

Thank you David.
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#14 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:42 PM

So we can not skip the negative. That is going to increase costs. I hope Kodak launches an Estar
250D positive stock that can be printed with optical sound track. I believe low budget indie preducers
would apreciate it.


---Have you priced the cost of 35mm reversal vs the cost of 35mm negative positve?

Then ther's the extra cost of the optical track.

Normally recorded as a B-wind Variable area negative.

You would have to have an A-wind print made from that for printing onto your reversal.

---LV
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:44 PM

"Filmouts" from a laser recorder (e.g. Arrilaser Recorder) are often made onto Kodak VISION Color Intermediate Film 2242:

http://www.kodak.com...s...6.4.4&lc=en

When the recording device has less light output (e.g., CRT recorders), a low speed camera stock like 5201 or 5212 may be used.

Although some have recorded both picture and analog soundtrack onto a single printing negative, much better results are obtained when a separate picture negative (e.g., 2242) and sound negative (e.g., 2374) are used:

http://www.kodak.com...s...0.4.4&lc=en

A reversal film like 5285 would not normally be used for a filmout, as it is not the optimum choice as a printing master.
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:01 PM

Yes, look at the costs of 5285 versus a color negative stock, plus the costs of large amounts of E6 processing versus ENC2 processing...

But your main problem is that the whole system of adding an optical track involves making an optical negative from the audio master, printing it along with the image negative onto a print stock.
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#17 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:04 PM

Mr. Pytlak,

Thank you for joining the discussion. Do you think both from a market and a technical perspective
that a one way(positive from capture to projection with sound)development of a stock is feasible ?


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#18 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:09 PM

It's already possible if you use a laser recorder, which is bright enough to burn the image into print stock, which is extremely slow in ASA just like intermediate stock is. Just not cost effective if you need more than one print ever. As soon as you need two prints, it would have been cheaper to transfer to a negative stock and strike prints off of that.
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#19 Alexandre Lucena

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:04 AM

It's already possible if you use a laser recorder, which is bright enough to burn the image into print stock, which is extremely slow in ASA just like intermediate stock is. Just not cost effective if you need more than one print ever. As soon as you need two prints, it would have been cheaper to transfer to a negative stock and strike prints off of that.


OK, I got the point. So what negative stock would you choose to shoot off an HD LCD ? Is there
a positive FUJI stock fast enough for a "one roll" process. Thanks again for the fruitful inputs.

Alexandre.
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#20 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:35 AM

OK, I got the point. So what negative stock would you choose to shoot off an HD LCD ? Is there
a positive FUJI stock fast enough for a "one roll" process. Thanks again for the fruitful inputs.

Alexandre.


An LCD display is unlikely to have the optimum tone scale or contrast ratio for really high quality transfers. Almost all commercial filmouts are done with laser recorders, or some form of CRT recording. Electron beam recording onto B&W stock has also been used in the past.

You ask for help from a Kodak engineer, and then decide to use another brand of film? :rolleyes:
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