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Letter to Kodak


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#1 John Adolfi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:16 PM

Dear Kodak,

Since the demise of Kodachrome you have forced me to consider your other weapons of the visual medium i.e. V2 200 and V2 500T. Thank you for taking the training wheels off my bike. My request is for a better and bigger bike with the addition of V2 100T and the 50D. These films will pretty much complete the cinematographers tool chest. Many have inquired already about these tools on this forum. Let me add my voice to this need. Your fresh film and quality assurances compells us to deal direct with you. Please head our call.


Sincerely,

John F. Adolfi
Former resident of Mattydale, N.Y.
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#2 Robert Hughes

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:29 PM

Dear Pro8,

Thank you for providing the abovementioned stocks in Super 8 format. If ever I get around to needing some, I might give you a call. My request is for you to roll up some nitrate based films in Super 8 packaging. That could be fun, and would give Homeland Security something to think about. Nobody's requested these tools on the forum yet, so let me be the first. Pleez hede our call. :rolleyes:

Edited by Robert Hughes, 13 July 2006 - 12:31 PM.

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#3 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:54 PM

Dear Kodak,

Since the demise of Kodachrome you have forced me to consider your other weapons of the visual medium i.e. V2 200 and V2 500T. Thank you for taking the training wheels off my bike. My request is for a better and bigger bike with the addition of V2 100T and the 50D. These films will pretty much complete the cinematographers tool chest. Many have inquired already about these tools on this forum. Let me add my voice to this need. Your fresh film and quality assurances compells us to deal direct with you. Please head our call.
Sincerely,

John F. Adolfi
Former resident of Mattydale, N.Y.


I'm very pleased that you really like the look of 7218 and 7217 for Super-8 origination. :)

As you know, Kodak has been considering Kodak VISION2 50D Color Negative Film 7201 for Super-8 as well. Unfortunately, I am hearing that the business case for offering 7201 is not very strong and may not get approved. :( As you may know, the 200T 7217 is a very sharp film, and you can get even finer grain structure by overexposing by a stop or two. For example, if you use 7217 in daylight with a Wratten 85 filter and one stop of overexposure, you get a very useful 64D exposure rating, along with a significant reduction in graininess from using the finer grained mid and slow emulsions in 7217. I am a strong proponent of offering 7201 for Super-8, but I also know how good 7217 can look with a "rich" exposure to reduce graininess.
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#4 John Adolfi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:09 PM

Keep swinging the bat John. And what about V2 100T then? Same senario?
Also does Kodak have any promotional DVD'd demonstrating any of the super 8 line. I've seen Kodaks promotional DVD on S16.
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#5 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:17 PM

...and you can get even finer grain structure by overexposing by a stop or two. For example, if you use 7217...


And all this time i've been overexposing it by only 1/3, 2/3.... ...pants.
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#6 Rachel Oliver

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:27 PM

Hi;

Bummer, any news on the 7285 reversal?

Olly
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#7 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:20 PM

Hi;

Bummer, any news on the 7285 reversal?

Olly


Not yet. Getting some pushback on not having two reversal films, so it may boil down to an either/or between 7280 (E64T) and 7285 (E100D).
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#8 Rachel Oliver

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:36 PM

Not yet. Getting some pushback on not having two reversal films, so it may boil down to an either/or between 7280 (E64T) and 7285 (E100D).


Hi;

Thanks John, I must say I'd rather the 7285 and It certainly seems this is echoed by the majority of people using the format, judging from the major film forums at least.

Olly
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#9 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:38 PM

[quote name='John_P_Pytlak' date='Jul 13 2006, 10:54 AM' post='114968']
I'm very pleased that you really like the look of 7218 and 7217 for Super-8 origination. :)

As you know, Kodak has been considering Kodak VISION2 50D Color Negative Film 7201 for Super-8 as well. Unfortunately, I am hearing that the business case for offering 7201 is not very strong and may not get approved. :(

The best business case may be to just do a run and see what happens. Perhaps Kodak is worried that lower budgets that shoot 50 ASA neg in 16mm may use the Super-8 instead.
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#10 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:05 PM

I am hearing that the business case for offering 7201 is not very strong and may not get approved.

The 7217 is awsome, but the potential of a film like 7201 will greatly improve the business case for cinematographers using and pitching the format. I have a lot of potential music video art work coming up. having a film like 7201 in the mix would make things so much easier. I would bag the 64T for 100D in a second. In my last festival on the big screen, I used 64T, 200T, 100D, Vel 50D... all in S8. The films that held together best were the 100D, Vel 50D, and 200T in tungston. I also have an awsome concert film hitting the streets in about 2 weeks where the 7218 in S8 and 16mm are amazing. But there is also serious need for a higher resolve film in daylight situations, that is lacking right now. If Kodak were to release 7201 and swap 64T for 100D, I seriously doubt those products would be collecting dust on the shelf.
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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:17 PM

The 7217 is awsome, but the potential of a film like 7201 will greatly improve the business case for cinematographers using and pitching the format. I have a lot of potential music video art work coming up. having a film like 7201 in the mix would make things so much easier. I would bag the 64T for 100D in a second. In my last festival on the big screen, I used 64T, 200T, 100D, Vel 50D... all in S8. The films that held together best were the 100D, Vel 50D, and 200T in tungston. I also have an awsome concert film hitting the streets in about 2 weeks where the 7218 in S8 and 16mm are amazing. But there is also serious need for a higher resolve film in daylight situations, that is lacking right now. If Kodak were to release 7201 and swap 64T for 100D, I seriously doubt those products would be collecting dust on the shelf.


Kodak may be afraid that too many choices in Super-8 will keep filmmakers from graduating to 16mm.
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:30 PM

Kodak may be afraid that too many choices in Super-8 will keep filmmakers from graduating to 16mm.


With a relatively "niche" product like Super-8 films, I sense the issue is more of having so many films in inventory that the "slow runners" end up being discarded for old age. For good images, 7217 with a bit of overexposure and a Wratten 85 should come pretty close to 7201.
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#13 A.Oliver

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:42 PM

John, has a business case been put forward for the release of 100D in the super 8 format. 64T does not project well due to its high level of grain. Will kodak release 100d?, if so when?.
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#14 John Adolfi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 05:42 PM

OK so the concensus is:

1.) Drop 64T unless you can sustain it with the new stocks we are proposing below.
2.) Release V2 100T
3.) Release V2 50D
4.) Release 100D (Is this a vision 2 stock?)

Kodak, John P. and the crew. You have to admit that this proposed progression within the super-8 community would be pretty darn exciting! Is saying "darn" in the heat of passion, super-8 passion ok?

Come on filmakers tell us what you think. Would you shoot more? Less? Same? Why?
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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:14 PM

"100D" is the E6 Ektachrome 5285 stock, which is more high contrast / high saturation than Ektachrome 64T.
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#16 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:42 PM

"100D" is the E6 Ektachrome 5285 stock, which is more high contrast / high saturation than Ektachrome 64T.


The increase contrast and saturation is very subtle, they look very similar in S8 except for much finer grain in the 100D. Switching the two, would be almost like taking 64T and wiping off the grain.

The ideal stock list in my opinion:

100D color reversal
Tri X B&W reversal
50D color Neg
200T color neg
500T color neg
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#17 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:53 PM

OK so the concensus is:

1.) Drop 64T unless you can sustain it with the new stocks we are proposing below.
2.) Release V2 100T
3.) Release V2 50D
4.) Release 100D (Is this a vision 2 stock?)

Kodak, John P. and the crew. You have to admit that this proposed progression within the super-8 community would be pretty darn exciting! Is saying "darn" in the heat of passion, super-8 passion ok?

Come on filmakers tell us what you think. Would you shoot more? Less? Same? Why?


Reviewing your list...

1.) Drop 64T unless you can sustain it with the new stocks we are proposing below.
2.) Release V2 100T
3.) Release V2 50D
4.) Release 100D (Is this a vision 2 stock?)...this is Ektachrome reversal...

Dropping only one stock while adding three is probably not realistic.

I'd say swapping the two Ektachrome's is a good idea, then choose between the V2 50D or the V2 100T.
That's a tough call, I think I'd rather have the 50D, but the 100 T gives one a better choice for indoors and with use of an 85 filter becomes a relatively low ASA negative outdoor option. Tough choice.

Why doesn't Kodak partner with an outside vendor who can financially commit the amount of money needed to do the minium run of cartridges? Is it really more than 10,000 cartridges? Is it 50,000 cartridges?

Perhaps Kodak is concerned it will harm their 16mm sales OR perhaps the 50D does not have a long enough shelf life.
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#18 John Adolfi

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:12 PM

If we as filmakers can affect the decissions of Kodak then what we have to do to get them to release more stocks? Buy more of Pro8mm stocks? Buy and use more of the existing Kodak stocks? Demand our rights?
Do we have any?
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#19 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:27 PM

Look, Kodak is not making much money, if any, from Super-8 -- it's practically a loss-leader for them. You are basically getting what Kodak feels it can cut from their giant production rolls and sell before the stock gets outdated, and the only facts they can believe in are sales figures.

Unfortunately, in 35mm and even Super-16, 500T stock reigns supreme in sales whereas the 50 ASA and 100 ASA stocks are relatively low sellers, whereas of course, in Super-8 those stocks would be ideal... but you're not benefitting from their success in 35mm.

A company like Kodak listens to customers, but obviously those spending more money (like studios) have a louder voice.

The problem with introducing more stocks to the same-sized customer base is that the sales for each individual stock would be smaller, so their profits will drop even more because they'll have to manufacture, package, and warehouse more types of stocks but not sell any more total. Unfortunately this isn't a print on demand business. It probably used to be easier to put out different Super-8 films when production rolls were less wide (I'm guessing on that) but on the other hand, we actually have MORE Super-8 stocks now on the market from Kodak than we did in the 1960's when Super-8 was in its heydey.

As it is, Kodak has been clearing out low-usage stocks in the 35mm and 16mm line in order to be more profitable. I think a more likely scenario would be to replace 64T with 100D, but then some people would complain since Super-8 cameras were designed, filter-wise & notch-wise, around tungsten 40T and 160T stocks mainly.
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#20 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:39 PM

The differences in daylight between 100T and 200T are minmal... there is no reason for both to exist in S8, 50D and 200T make a lot more sense. I think my list is the most practical for pros and amatures. 3 color negs with a wide range of ASA, 50, 200, 500. 1 color reversal (100D) and 1 B&W reversal (tri X). there you go, 5 films for perfection. 6 if they want to keep Plus X. Super 8 may not be the most profitable for Kodak, but almost every major film maker I read about started in S8, and is now responsible for millions of dollars in 35mm consumtion.
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