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Beaulieu 4008ZM Guillotine Shutter


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#1 Chris Gravat

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 08:46 PM

Hello,

I recently purchased a Beaulieu 4008ZM. I am wanting to use my incedent meter for exposure. The only problem is that I am having a hard time finding concrete information about the shutter angle and shutter speed of the camera.

This is what I have gathered from the ZMII manual via PDF. At 18fps the shutter speed is 1/65, at 24fps the shutter speed is 1/86, and at 36fps it is 1/130. I know that a guillotine shutter is quite different from a rotary disc shutter. I guess what I am wondering is, why do they call this a variable guillotine shutter if I cannot change the shutter angle. And if my calculations are correct the shutter angle stays 100 degrees at all times. At least thats what I figured out based on the shutter speeds listed above.

If anyone can make some sense of all this I would appreciate it.

- Chris
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#2 Paul Samuels

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 04:09 AM

Hello,

I recently purchased a Beaulieu 4008ZM. I am wanting to use my incedent meter for exposure. The only problem is that I am having a hard time finding concrete information about the shutter angle and shutter speed of the camera.

This is what I have gathered from the ZMII manual via PDF. At 18fps the shutter speed is 1/65, at 24fps the shutter speed is 1/86, and at 36fps it is 1/130. I know that a guillotine shutter is quite different from a rotary disc shutter. I guess what I am wondering is, why do they call this a variable guillotine shutter if I cannot change the shutter angle. And if my calculations are correct the shutter angle stays 100 degrees at all times. At least thats what I figured out based on the shutter speeds listed above.

If anyone can make some sense of all this I would appreciate it.

- Chris

I have a 2004 model (I think) which I haven't used in some 15-20 years, but the way it worked on mine was that the shutter goes up and down, thus alternately sending the image to film and the viewfinder. The variation in shutter speeds is based on how long the film is being exposed by the shutter movement. Therefore, the faster the fps, the faster the shutter movement, the shorter the exposure.

Paul Samuels
panoramix@adelphia.net
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#3 Fran Kuhn

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 11:18 AM

. . .why do they call this a variable guillotine shutter if I cannot change the shutter angle. And if my calculations are correct the shutter angle stays 100 degrees at all times.
- Chris



Chris,

The 4008 ZMII's shutter is variable in a sense--you can use the small lever located on the top of the camera body to close the shutter for the purpose of doing fades, or to close it halfway to cut your exposure in half if needed (at least according to the 4008 ZMII instruction manual I have: see pp. 15 and 20).

I'd much prefer that you could actually use this feature to get a "wider" shutter angle/longer shutter speed, say, 180-degree, 1/48th second instead of the camera's 1/86th second at 24fps. This way it would be possible to get a little more movement in the frames and less of a staccato feel. It would also allow more light in. Sadly, because the ZMII has the 1/86th shutter, all lenses used on it are effectively a stop slower than if used on a camera with a 1/48th shutter speed.
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#4 steve hyde

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:26 PM

Sadly, because the ZMII has the 1/86th shutter, all lenses used on it are effectively a stop slower than if used on a camera with a 1/48th shutter speed.



..true, but I'm convinced the faster shutter speed produces a sharper image since 1/48th is not really fast enough to stop action. I understand larger gauge cameras mostly shoot around 1/50th. I think the ZMII shutter is a give and take... It creates a stacato look that is actually quite distinctive. I think this is partially caused by the sharpness of each image since there is much less motion blur on each individual frame...

Steve
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#5 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 10:05 PM

..true, but I'm convinced the faster shutter speed produces a sharper image since 1/48th is not really fast enough to stop action. I understand larger gauge cameras mostly shoot around 1/50th. I think the ZMII shutter is a give and take... It creates a stacato look that is actually quite distinctive. I think this is partially caused by the sharpness of each image since there is much less motion blur on each individual frame...


Exactly, sharper images. I like the stacato feel sometimes and go for it on purpose. I think the 64T really benifits with a faster, sharper exposure. appears to tighten up grain, or maybe just that the images are well defined. longer exposures are good for smooth timelapses, or low light if you need it... but has a fan motion at 24fps.
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#6 Chris Gravat

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 12:57 AM

Okay, so I guess the variable shutter angle is reffering to the slide machanism at the top of the camera for in camera fades and such. From the info I have looked at in the manual I have concluded that the shutter angle is always at 100 degrees. I am going to shoot a few test rolls and see how precise I can get my exposure with my Sekonic 558 Dual Master. Thanks for all the replies everyone.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL
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#7 Fran Kuhn

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 02:41 PM

..true, but I'm convinced the faster shutter speed produces a sharper image since 1/48th is not really fast enough to stop action. I understand larger gauge cameras mostly shoot around 1/50th. I think the ZMII shutter is a give and take... It creates a stacato look that is actually quite distinctive. I think this is partially caused by the sharpness of each image since there is much less motion blur on each individual frame...

Steve


You're right about that--it definitely has a sharp image. This seems to make it look more like what I remember from our home movies as a kid, which is part of the reason I like it. In a way, the 4008 seems almost too good at 24fps, so I'm doing more at 18fps for the old-school look. Otherwise, I'll just shoot 16mm.
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#8 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:53 AM

Okay, so I guess the variable shutter angle is reffering to the slide machanism at the top of the camera for in camera fades and such. From the info I have looked at in the manual I have concluded that the shutter angle is always at 100 degrees. I am going to shoot a few test rolls and see how precise I can get my exposure with my Sekonic 558 Dual Master. Thanks for all the replies everyone.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL


Since it's a guillotine shutter, I recall it being the equivilant of a 120 degree shutter if I'm not mistaken. I've been playing with wild moving shots on canon 1014E and nizos with a 45 degree shutter... very surreal crispy shots.
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#9 Chris Gravat

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 02:29 AM

Since it's a guillotine shutter, I recall it being the equivilant of a 120 degree shutter if I'm not mistaken. I've been playing with wild moving shots on canon 1014E and nizos with a 45 degree shutter... very surreal crispy shots.


Well if you do the equation 360/100 x fps you get the shutter speeds listed in the manual for each framerate of the camera. This guillotine shuter is quite unique, I am hoping my images will only strobe like saving private ryan-ish with increased shutter speeds (Which I know they will). But I hope at 24 fps I can just get a nice sharp look with some of the reformatted Vision 2 that pro8mm offers. I'll let you guys know how the test rolls come out.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL
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#10 steve hyde

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:03 PM

Well if you do the equation 360/100 x fps you get the shutter speeds listed in the manual for each framerate of the camera. This guillotine shuter is quite unique, I am hoping my images will only strobe like saving private ryan-ish with increased shutter speeds (Which I know they will). But I hope at 24 fps I can just get a nice sharp look with some of the reformatted Vision 2 that pro8mm offers. I'll let you guys know how the test rolls come out.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL



I'll be interested to hear (or see) what happens with your tests. Last week I had a transfer of some color negative shot on my Beaulieu at various frame rates. (mostly 18fps) The xfer was made at 24fps because I didn't maintain detaild camera reports and didn't want the colorist to spend anytime making time adjustments. (perhaps a mistake) I noticed subtle strobing in some shots and now I'm wondering if this might be caused by shooting at 18 and xfer at 24fps. ...not sure?? This is the first time I have shot my Beaulieu with intentions of acheiving a color neg look that cuts with 16mm since this is what the project calls for. Before this color neg project that I'm on now, I was hand processing the film in a LOMO tank for a distressed look so this new project comes with a learning curve. I am liking the results so far, but I want to learn how to reduce the strobing... Is it happening during telecine or in camera? This is a conversation I hope to have with the colorist later this week..

Steve
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#11 Robert Hughes

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 07:15 PM

I recently purchased a Beaulieu 4008ZM. I am wanting to use my incedent meter for exposure.

I recently purchased a 4008ZXXX for my girlfriend. I am wanting to use my indecent meter for exposing her. Can I still send it to Yale? How about if I use that black tape? :D

Edited by Robert Hughes, 25 July 2006 - 07:16 PM.

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#12 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 07:40 AM

Since it's a guillotine shutter, I recall it being the equivilant of a 120 degree shutter if I'm not mistaken. I've been playing with wild moving shots on canon 1014E and nizos with a 45 degree shutter... very surreal crispy shots.



The shutter angle when set to normal (full) is definatly 100 degrees, meaning at 18fps exposure time is 1/65 of a second, at 24fps its 1/86 of a second. If your using a cine meter without the ability to set a precise shutter angle remember to overexpose by 2/3 of a stop.

When the shutter lever is set at the half-open position (halfway between full open and closed) only half the light is comming through so 18fps expousre is 1/130 sec, and at 24fps its 1/172 so the angle is theoretically 50 degrees, which means you have to compensate by opening an extra one stop.

I guess the advantage of the 100 degree shutter is that since the super8 world was very much 18fps based, it cut down excessive streaking to a look more similar to proffesional footage shot at 24/25fps which the usual 180 degree shutter.
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#13 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 12:58 PM

I am new to the Beaulieu line of cameras I just purchased a 5008s, and looking on super8wikki they claim the shutter is 1/60 on this camera, can anyone confirm or deny this?

thanks!
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#14 Chris Gravat

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 02:59 PM

I am new to the Beaulieu line of cameras I just purchased a 5008s, and looking on super8wikki they claim the shutter is 1/60 on this camera, can anyone confirm or deny this?

thanks!



Well you can try to get a PDF of the manual. The manual will tell you the shutter speeds at different frame rates. From that you can figure out the shutter angle with a bit of math.

I am 80% sure that the shutter is the same as my 4008ZM. But if you can get a hold of a manual for your camera you'll be all set.

Try Du-All Camera in NY they deal with alot of Beaulieu S8 cams, who knows maybe they will have a copy of the manual.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL
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#15 John Terendy

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 05:53 PM

According to a Beaulieu brochure that I have, the 5008S exposes at 1/60th at 24 fps
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#16 Salvador M. Rodrigues

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:33 AM

The shutter angle when set to normal (full) is definatly 100 degrees, meaning at 18fps exposure time is 1/65 of a second, at 24fps its 1/86 of a second. If your using a cine meter without the ability to set a precise shutter angle remember to overexpose by 2/3 of a stop.

When the shutter lever is set at the half-open position (halfway between full open and closed) only half the light is comming through so 18fps expousre is 1/130 sec, and at 24fps its 1/172 so the angle is theoretically 50 degrees, which means you have to compensate by opening an extra one stop.


I don't own a cine meter, just an old Weston Master V for still photography. How can I accurately measure the 1/86 and 1/172 in it ? Surely there's a way to compensate or round to the nearest tenth or hundreth ?

Thanks,

SMR
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#17 steve hyde

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 11:09 AM

I don't own a cine meter, just an old Weston Master V for still photography. How can I accurately measure the 1/86 and 1/172 in it ? Surely there's a way to compensate or round to the nearest tenth or hundreth ?

Thanks,

SMR


Yes rounding to the nearest tenth should be just fine.
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#18 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 03:40 PM

Well you can try to get a PDF of the manual. The manual will tell you the shutter speeds at different frame rates. From that you can figure out the shutter angle with a bit of math.

I am 80% sure that the shutter is the same as my 4008ZM. But if you can get a hold of a manual for your camera you'll be all set.

Try Du-All Camera in NY they deal with alot of Beaulieu S8 cams, who knows maybe they will have a copy of the manual.

- Chris Gravat
DP / Editor
Orlando, FL


Someone sendt me this manual, and I have uploaded it to my website. You can download it from
http://www.super8.no/manuals.html

Bjarne Eldhuset
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