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better of the two?


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#1 rajavel

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 12:44 AM

hi all
is there a difference or which is the better of the following two options
to get a sunny morning feel for an interior set.

1. tungsten lighting ...with tungsten film stock in the camera. the advantage
of this is that reduced cost of the tungsten

2. arri par lights/ hmi...with day light stock

my question is whether the warm tungsten lights.....which will bring the
warmth on to the film.....can it be colour corrected to look like day light for the
interior in the post production? and how will the look differ if the same interior scene
was shot with hmi/par....

can they both be ....graded to achieve the same look??!
thanks
rajavel
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 02:01 AM

If you're talking about a SET, not a location with real daylight outside the windows to factor in, white light is white light -- whether it's tungsten on tungsten film or HMI's on daylight film. The issues of warming up that white light are the same. There are some subtle differences, but for the most part given a choice, more people would rather use tungsten lights on a stage than HMI's because tungstens are a more consistent full-spectrum source whereas HMI's can vary more in how blue they are or can pick-up some green, plus they are more "fiddly", like not being able to restrike them when they are hot.

On the other hand, if you are talking about a mix of lighting color temps, that's a different issue. Janusz Kaminski lit the big set of "The Terminal" with HMI's (Lightning Strikes Soft Suns) coming through the skylight because he wanted the realistic MISMATCH with tungsten practicals in the stores.
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#3 rajavel

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 04:19 AM

[quote name='David Mullen ASC' date='Jul 24 2006, 12:31 PM' post='116542']
If you're talking about a SET, not a location with real daylight outside the windows to factor in, white light is white light -- whether it's tungsten on tungsten film or HMI's on daylight film.

David i am almost there....what really is the difference in a SET lighting (tungsten stock)
1.) with tungsten lighting for Day effect (white temp)
2.) with tungsten lighting for Night effect (warm temp)

correct if i am wrong....
1) main difference is the contrast ratio. more fill light is used for day effect and less fill or nil fill for night effect

but tell me.....tungsten stock is corrected for tungsten light...so it gets registered as white light on film...but if
thats the case how does the night interior takes on the warmer tone....even when we shoot on T stocks....shouldn't they be white on film....
sorry if it is a stupid question?
thanks david

rajavel
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#4 Chris Pritzlaff

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 06:40 AM

In a way you are correct. Light during the day tends to bounce around a room creating more fill which does reduce the contrast. However, it does not need to be that way unless you want it to. Light coming through a window could be used with more contrast if controled properly if that is what you want.

Also, moonlight at night tends to look cooler in color temperature. If you are shooting tungsten stock with tungsten light you can use blue gels to color your lights to get them to the desired look. Try to experiment with different ways of lighting and see what you like best. Its all about making decisions that best help you tell the story.
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#5 G McMahon

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 09:06 AM

Don't forget players comfort. Some rooms can turn into hot boxes under tungsten lighting.

Remember, your creating an illusion. Think of the story, there are other elements in film making which sell the fact its morning (sound, props, cereal).

I personally feel that morning light is a higher key than afternoon light, the last short I did I bounced a light in through the windows, and the already existing daylight gave me an ambiance. I set up a few smaller units peppering items from just outside the window which overexposed where they hit. But it?s all relative to size of windows etc.

I think that night interiors could contain less contrast than day time (light source is in the room, which could bounce around many surfaces).

Don't get locked into lighting things because that?s the way it naturally should look.

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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 10:52 AM

There are no rules about the correct "contrast" -- you could have a sun-filled low-contrast day interior and an extremely moody night scene lit with one practical lamp. Or you could have a high-contrast day scene lit by the only open window in a dark room with a lot of fall-off the black, and then a low-contrast night scene with a lot of lamps turned on.

It just depends on what mood you are trying to create and what is natural for the room and the scene action.

Same goes for color tone -- daytime can be cool, neutral, or warm depending on what you want.

Night lit by JUST tungsten practicals usually can't be cool (unless the room is painted in blue tones with blue lampshades I suppose.) You can either make them look neutral (white) or warmer. Personally, I feel that tungsten lamps should feel a little warm at night. There are many ways to get them to look that way.

One of the main ways on a set that you make the same room look night versus day is where you establish the light is coming. Bright light flooding through windows with the practicals off says "day" and no-or-dim light through windows and bright practical on says "night". Moonlit scenes with no practicals on are rather similar to day lighting, just more underexposed and contrastier, and usually bluer.

If you want the audience to know that the same set has now become day or night, you try and frame clues into the shot, like a window or a lamp. Someone sits on the coach and may be soft side-lit whether it is a day or night scene because the lamp and the window are both off to the same side of the coach -- but let's say in the background is a kitchen that is flooded with light in the day and near pitch-black at night.
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#7 rajavel

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:06 AM

of course yes...there are no rules for the 'contrast ratio' , mood of the scene and lighting.
but my doubt is boiling down to the last bit of the production line, the postproduction.......

assuming we take a SINGLE shot.....that is neutrally composed (could be either night or day scene) and i have used tungsten light for the key light (no practicals in frame)....with tungsten stock on the camera.....is there a possibility to easily make the final print look like Day shot or Night shot...by the way we Grade the negative.....for example......increase the warmth to make it look like night shot OR GRADE IT to LOOK LIKE WHITE light to match day light.????
thanks
cheers
rajavel
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:21 AM

of course yes...there are no rules for the 'contrast ratio' , mood of the scene and lighting.
but my doubt is boiling down to the last bit of the production line, the postproduction.......

assuming we take a SINGLE shot.....that is neutrally composed (could be either night or day scene) and i have used tungsten light for the key light (no practicals in frame)....with tungsten stock on the camera.....is there a possibility to easily make the final print look like Day shot or Night shot...by the way we Grade the negative.....for example......increase the warmth to make it look like night shot OR GRADE IT to LOOK LIKE WHITE light to match day light.????
thanks
cheers
rajavel


Why is daylight "white"? Why can't it be warm? Late afternoon sun can get warmer-looking than a practical at night. You can time a practical at night to look white.

I don't understand your question -- do you want to light a shot that can be timed either way, day or night? Because it probably won't be very interesting.

If you eliminate all visual clues as to the time of day in the frame, like a lamp on or a bright window or a pattern of sunlight, then all you might have is a face lit from one side, let's say, against a wall with some non-descript light on it. And sure, you could time that warm, white, or blue in post, but what would be the point? It would be a boringly-lit shot if you don't put any clues as to the time of day.

You can time any shot to be warm or neutral or blue if you wanted to, so what are you asking? You don't honestly think it's enough to just time a shot warm and call that "night" and then time it white and call it "day" do you? You'd only do that in an emergency to fix something -- otherwise you'd light a scene to look more like daytime or night, and you'd make it warm or white or cool, whatever you wanted.

Tungsten light is "white" on tungsten stock, so if you want the day scene on a set to look "white" you could do that with tungsten light.
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#9 rajavel

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:15 PM

oh david thanks. that cleared it all......but of course i was not able to put it across clearly may b......i swear i will never want to light day and night the same way ....ofcourse i know that that will be the worst lighting treatment......that was just an example i used to clear my technical doubt.....with all those assumptions....

i definitely dont have fixed ideas...about the lighting...ofcourse i love warm lighting ...with a 1/4 cto or a straw or even a 1/2 cto.

u rightly said that......my doubt was only for that "emergency fixing" solution....
i would be insulting this entire forum if i was so tasteless in creating a scene that could match both day and night......

David....just hope u didnt get me wrong! reply with a "NO" ....i will sigh a relief.

Hey david...u know what ..after all those discussions on SKB.....i tried skip-bleach on the negative for a song sequence in my film...and has come out brilliantly. thaanks and cheers!!!
rajavel
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Glidecam

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Aerial Filmworks

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Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

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The Slider

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rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio