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Registration Pin Question


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#1 Christian Blas

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:04 AM

The Arriflex S/B is the only affordable camera that has a registration pin function on it. Does this function really matter? Is it any different to other 16mm cameras and their picture? Besides is this the only 16mm camera that has this function?
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#2 Tim Carroll

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:36 AM

The Arriflex S/B is the only affordable camera that has a registration pin function on it. Does this function really matter? Is it any different to other 16mm cameras and their picture? Besides is this the only 16mm camera that has this function?


A registration pin makes the image more stable.

Alot of folks think the registration pin just inserts into the perf and that keeps the film from moving during exposure and that makes the image stable.

In actuality, with a camera that's set up properly, the registration pin advances the film very minutely each time it enters the perf. This action places the film in the exact same position for each exposed frame.

Some non-registration pin cameras claim that the pulldown claw does this accurately enough, but I'm not so sure. I just think it gives you more accuracy and more registration steadiness. Especially in cameras that are in the same age and price range as the Arriflex 16S/B.

-Tim
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#3 Robert Hughes

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 06:34 PM

One of the questions that comes up with the registration pin issue is: what is good enough? Does anybody but the filmmaking team notice the difference? Just about any camera from the humble Bolex or Filmo on up can give you a good picture with reasonable steadiness, but the tolerances held by well-tended pin registered cameras are of course held to a stricter standard.

It's not like non-pin cameras are beneath the quality standards of film production. For instance, Auricon and CP-16 cameras aren't pin registered, but millions of feet of film have been exposed by them and played to satisfied audiences. As with firearms: if you're shooting handheld, about any working 16mm camera will be more steady than you are.

But, if you need to shoot process shots where exact registration is mandatory, you'll have to use a camera suited to the task, such as an Arri, Aaton or other machine with pin registration.

Edited by Robert Hughes, 31 July 2006 - 06:36 PM.

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#4 Dan Goulder

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 10:31 PM

But, if you need to shoot process shots where exact registration is mandatory, you'll have to use a camera suited to the task, such as an Arri, Aaton or other machine with pin registration.

The Aaton isn't pin registered, although it is very steady.
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#5 Tim Carroll

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:48 PM

But, if you need to shoot process shots where exact registration is mandatory. . .


Sorry to disagree with you Robert, but I consider exact registration mandatory for any professional project. If you are trying to imitate the look of old Super 8 film, then not having exact registration may be acceptable.

-Tim
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#6 Hans Engstrom

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:36 AM

The Aaton isn't pin registered, although it is very steady.


Some even prefer Aaton over Arri for sfx. I have not done any side by side tests but both cameras if in good order will give steady images.
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#7 Nathan Milford

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 08:18 AM

A properly shaped, polished and set claw on an Aaton will create a registration test that is indistinguishable from another camera with a registration pin.

That is to say, a properly tuned movement can obviate the need for a pin. It just depends on the designers priorities.

Different strokes for different.. uhh manufacturers...
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#8 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:16 PM

A properly shaped, polished and set claw on an Aaton will create a registration test that is indistinguishable from another camera with a registration pin.

That is to say, a properly tuned movement can obviate the need for a pin. It just depends on the designers priorities.

Different strokes for different.. uhh manufacturers...


I not support of Nathan's idea.
If you check of theory of claw mechanisms , theory of claw moving, you can see, the final point of claw move - unstable point on motion path of claw.
This point depend from condition of parts of claw mechanism, running clearance between parts and more ets.
This is point can change position from surface deterioration of parts.
That's why, the designers use a registration pin for receiving a high volume of stability of frame on all time of life of camera.

If anybody interesting, i can confirm of my words of diagrams of mechanism.

Yes, the version of transport mechanism of camera with registration pin or without registration pin depend on the designer priorities and price of camera.
The mechanism with registration pin have additional parts of control of registration pin and have more high price.

I not told, what the camera without registration pin - not good camera. We have many very good cameras without registration pin. But, the every film maker can answer. You need camera with registration pin or without registration pin.

I wish underline again.

If you need of 16 mm cine camera with low cost and high volume of technical characteristics, you need check information about Kinor-16 SX-2M .

Russian 16 mm professional cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M have transport mechanism with registration pin.
And this camera have low price now.
If anybody interest, can check old letters on forum or ask me.

Kinor-16 SX-2M camera , reflex cine camera with mono lens mount, can use 100 ft, 400 ft film magazines.
The camera have electrical motor with 12 v DC, have analog system of speed stabilization ( +/- 2.5% ) have Pilot-Tone system. The motor can be modify on multi speed crystal synch with modern microprocessor control.
The camera can have prime lenses from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm and other.
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#9 Max Lundberg

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 03:00 PM

I very much agree with Nathan.

There's much more things that affect to registration than JUST a one pin(or even two).
It's not like every camera without a registarion pin has the same design than some old camera from the fifties. Only when shooting high-speed(100fps+), a registration pin can be a benefit.
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 03:08 PM

In theory, a pin-registered camera is best, especially when the film will be used in a pin-registered optical printer. That's called the "principle of cancellation", where the same perforation is always used for positioning. In practice, many cameras without registration pins come close to matching them for steadiness.

For a particular camera, run a two-pass double exposure test with a registration target to verify the camera's ability to precisely position the film in the gate.
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#11 Robert Hughes

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 07:13 PM

In theory, a pin-registered camera is best, especially when the film will be used in a pin-registered optical printer. That's called the "principle of cancellation", where the same perforation is always used for positioning.

Perhaps the most graphic example of the principle of cancellation comes from the early films by DW Griffith, shot by Billy Bitzer on a large format MP camera using unperforated film. As the film advanced through the camera, a set of wheels would pull the film through between frames, without any precise distance defined. When the film was in position for the next exposure, a pair of sharpened die-cutting pins would punch holes in the film and essentially staple the film to the gate for the duration of the frame exposure, after which time the pins would extract and the film would advance to the next frame. Bitzer claimed that one of his main duties as camera operator was cleaning the film chaff out of the camera between takes. During printing, the film frames were lined up on the pin holes. These frames were not spaced an exact distance from each other, however each frame was positioned exactly with reference to the punch holes generated in-camera, which is one reason why Griffith's early (pre Pathe camera) films look as steady as they do.
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#12 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:21 AM

I very much agree with Nathan.

There's much more things that affect to registration than JUST a one pin(or even two).
It's not like every camera without a registarion pin has the same design than some old camera from the fifties. Only when shooting high-speed(100fps+), a registration pin can be a benefit.


Any person to have the right to have personal opinion.

But, I recommend study theory of mechanisms
I can recommend of book of Harald Weise ( Koln) " Die Kinematographische kamera ".
(I have russian edition, Moskov 1958).
You can study more other books with theory of kinematic schemes of cine cameras.
I not told about difference of kinematic schemes of claw mechanisms of different cameras, about formulas for calculation of trajectory of transport pin.
I not told about calculation of volume stability of trajectory of transport pin.
I can not explain of all theory of kinematic schemes, but, i will show one picture only.

I wish underline, this is theoretical idea of one type of transport mechanism only and not to show a real mechanism of real camera.
[attachment=1366:attachment]
This is picture show of trajectory of transport pin ( transport mechanism with one transport pin ) of one type of mechanism with different point of contact between film and transport pin.
You can see, the size of moving of film depend from point of contact film with transport pin.
The Theoretically, the film can bend from surface of film gate and change point of contact with transport pin.

The transport mechanisms can have one, two, four and more registration pins.
The registration pins can adjust position of film on horistonal and verstical axises.
A some D8 cameras had registration pin too.
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:20 AM

Hi,

Judging by the no of Mitchell Standard & High Speed movements still in use today, I am fairly sure a pin registered movement will stay steady for longer and with less maintenance.

Stephen
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#14 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:44 AM

Hi,

Judging by the no of Mitchell Standard & High Speed movements still in use today, I am fairly sure a pin registered movement will stay steady for longer and with less maintenance.

Stephen


I Agree,
the Mitchell standard and Mitchell high speed movements have very high qulaity of
calculation, design and production.
As for me, this is the highest level of design of transport mechanisms of cameras ( I not told about super modern cameras, i know not many about this design ).
The many russian studio cameras have transport mechanisms with kinematic schemes similar of Mitchell.
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:55 AM

The many russian studio cameras have transport mechanisms with kinematic schemes similar of Mitchell.


I recall that some Russian 35mm cameras used film perforated KS-1866, rather than BH-1866. Do most Russian cameras in use today now use the "standard" Bell-and-Howell (BH) registration pin?:

Posted Image
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#16 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 03:11 PM

I recall that some Russian 35mm cameras used film perforated KS-1866, rather than BH-1866. Do most Russian cameras in use today now use the "standard" Bell-and-Howell (BH) registration pin?:


Yes, this true.
The all russian films, 35 mm B&W negative, B&W print, color negative, color print and other had one type of perforation. This is square profile of hole with size 2.8 x 1.98 mm and step between perforation 4.75+/- 0.01mm. ( 0.1870 inc. ) This is film similar of Kodak KS-1870.
But, the russian film can be compatible with KS-1866 perforation too, because, Kodak KS-1866 have perforation intervals between perforation 0.1866 inc = 4.74 mm +/- 0.01 ( 4.73...4.75 mm ).
The russian films have 4.75 +/- 0.01mm ( 4.74...4.76 mm ).

The all russian cine cameras with one transport pin ( Konvas-1, Konvas-1M, Konvas-2M, AKS-1, AKS-4 and other )compatible with all type of 35 mm films,
You can load KS or BH film and the camera will work OK.
The russian cine cameras with registration pins ( Kinor-35H, Temp, KSK-1, KSK-2, Rodina, PSK-29 and other), made at time of USSR , with original version of mechanism compatible with KS film only and not will work with BH film without modification.
The USSR delivered special edition of some cameras ( Kinor-35 and other) on West with BH version of claw mechanism.
But, all russian cameras with registration pins can be modify for BH film and many film makers use BH version of russian cameras now without problem. Now, popular russian cameras Kinor-35H, Kinor-35S, 1SKL and other.

If we tell told about 16 mm cine cameras, the russian 16 mm film have similar size, perforation interval 7.62 mm +/- (0.01 mm ) = 0.3000 inch , size of perforation 1.83 x 1.27 mm with Kodak 16 mm films 1R3000, 2R3000.
That's why, all russian 16 mm cine cameras with registration pin or without registration pin can use Kodak 1R3000, 2R3000 film without any problem and without any modifications.
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#17 Max Lundberg

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:35 PM

But, I recommend study theory of mechanisms

Why do you think that I don't know the theory?

I have done dozens of registration tests with many different cameras, like aaton, arriflex, eclair, bolex etc.
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#18 Ole Dost

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:41 PM

The Arriflex S/B is the only affordable camera that has a registration pin function on it. Does this function really matter? Is it any different to other 16mm cameras and their picture? Besides is this the only 16mm camera that has this function?



Much cheaper then an Arri S/BL is the Kinor 16. It has one registration pin and the results are great! When my first film shot on this camera was developped, I was asked: Did you use an Arri SR?
The Kinor 16 offers a lot of great lenses. The Mags are interchangeable. A Kinor can be aquired on Ebay for about 500 Euros (used) up to 1500 Euros (new -in the sense of "never used"). I love the camera! It offers professionell possibilities as well as professionel results!
Ole
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#19 Mike Rizos

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:00 PM

This has beeen a very interesting and illuninating discussion. From the above posts I am led to believe, that in perfectly running cameras the registration pin might not be so important. But in older cameras, and ones that haven't been serviced or rebuilt, or ones that had heavy use the pin makes a difference.

I not support of Nathan's idea.
If you check of theory of claw mechanisms , theory of claw moving, you can see, the final point of claw move - unstable point on motion path of claw.
This point depend from condition of parts of claw mechanism, running clearance between parts and more ets.
This is point can change position from surface deterioration of parts.
That's why, the designers use a registration pin for receiving a high volume of stability of frame on all time of life of camera.

If anybody interesting, i can confirm of my words of diagrams of mechanism.

Yes, the version of transport mechanism of camera with registration pin or without registration pin depend on the designer priorities and price of camera.
The mechanism with registration pin have additional parts of control of registration pin and have more high price.

I not told, what the camera without registration pin - not good camera. We have many very good cameras without registration pin. But, the every film maker can answer. You need camera with registration pin or without registration pin.

I wish underline again.

If you need of 16 mm cine camera with low cost and high volume of technical characteristics, you need check information about Kinor-16 SX-2M .

Russian 16 mm professional cine camera Kinor-16 SX-2M have transport mechanism with registration pin.
And this camera have low price now.
If anybody interest, can check old letters on forum or ask me.

Kinor-16 SX-2M camera , reflex cine camera with mono lens mount, can use 100 ft, 400 ft film magazines.
The camera have electrical motor with 12 v DC, have analog system of speed stabilization ( +/- 2.5% ) have Pilot-Tone system. The motor can be modify on multi speed crystal synch with modern microprocessor control.
The camera can have prime lenses from 6 mm up to 300 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm and other.



Olex, the Kinor 16 SX-2M sounds like a very interesting, and rugged camera. What does a serviced body 3-4 magazines and zoom go for about.? How is the camera for left eye viewing? I was considering the Arri S but it's near impossible to view with the left eye. My right eye is no good. I am in the market for an MOS camera that can take some abuse. I did not see it at your website.
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#20 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 04:04 AM

Why do you think that I don't know the theory?

I have done dozens of registration tests with many different cameras, like aaton, arriflex, eclair, bolex etc.


I not tell, what you don't know theory. I don't know this.
I repair and service of professional cine cameras many years too and make many registration test too.
What you make registration test ? on big screen with doubled shootoing of test image ?
I design and use special device for registration test with microscope. But, i think, the manufacturer of cameras have more precision equipmens for registration tests.
I tell about other side of this idea. We discuss about theoretical side between cameras with registration pin and cameras without registration pin. And not compare Aaton, arri, eclair cameras.
After i make a many registration test, i begin think about theoretical sides and the books help me too much.
The test good idea for compare of mechanisms, but, the treoretical ideas give me additional information for understand of this.
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