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ASA? help pleeaasse.


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#1 Nick Norton

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 03:59 PM

I just got ahold of a Canon 518 camera, and i just orderd a stock of Ektachrome and a stock of PLUS-X film.


i've done still photography and a lot of video stuff, but this is my first time with actual film.


my main question is on ASA. i know it has something to do with film speed, but do i set that manually or is it something i have to be aware of? i'm very, very confused on ASA and was wondering if anyone could help me out.

Also, any tips for someone shooting their first role or Ektachrome and Plus-X with a canon 518?

thanks-

Nick Norton
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#2 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 05:27 PM

I just got ahold of a Canon 518 camera, and i just orderd a stock of Ektachrome and a stock of PLUS-X film.
i've done still photography and a lot of video stuff, but this is my first time with actual film.
my main question is on ASA. i know it has something to do with film speed, but do i set that manually or is it something i have to be aware of? i'm very, very confused on ASA and was wondering if anyone could help me out.

Also, any tips for someone shooting their first role or Ektachrome and Plus-X with a canon 518?

thanks-

Nick Norton


If you don't want to use an external light meter (which is always prefreble) you don't have to do anything as you can use the automatic exposure on the camera. The majority of Super 8 cameras identify the film speed by notches on the cartridge and exposes appropriatly.

There has been recent problems with Ektachrome not reading correctly in some cameras but the Canon 518 appears to be okay.

Probably better to try one cartridge to test the camera out first before you shoot the other. There will be issues with shooting the Ektachrome in sunlight with regards to colour temperature but probably better to shoot and see what happens before you worry about it.

read as much as you can:
onsuper8.org

Edited by Andy_Alderslade, 01 August 2006 - 05:28 PM.

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#3 Bryan Darling

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 05:34 PM

The issue with the Canon 518 is that it has no manual exposure capability. Also it reads the ASA automatically from the cartridge. Now in the past that wouldn't have been a problem. It was designed in an era where there were a handful of different film types and speeds (ASA). Today's film types and speeds are different from when the camera was built and what it was designed for. A lot of other cameras are the same way. A few models made by Nizo, Beaulieu, and possible other manufacturers were designed to accept a wide range of films speeds. Those cameras' light meters are still useable if so desired.

The workaround used today is utilizing a separate light meter and setting the camera's exposure manually. The problem with the Canon 518, and other cameras out there, is it has no ability for manual exposure. It only has an exposure lock switch which must be constantly held down to work, it is labeled (EE). This wouldn't be so much a pain if either the camera's meter was designed for a range of film speeds instead of specific ones. In which case you could use the meter, then hold down the exposure lock. However, unlike other automatic cameras, you can't place the exposure lock in position without constantly holding it down. This becomes tiresome and easy to slip, not to mention awkward since you can't run any other controls on the camera while both hands are busy.

So basically here's what you can do with the camera. You'll have to get a light meter, find the shutter speeds of your camera at the various frame rates, meter the light, point the camera at something until the automatic meter gives you the closest f-stop you need based on what your handheld meter says, then hold the exposure lock switch down and then shoot. Sound complicated and tedious? It is. I personally would recommend a different camera.

One more note, if you are using the Ekatchrome 64T in daylight you will need to buy a separate 85B filter to put onto your camera to compensate since the film is designed for indoor use. You will then need to adjust your meter for the amount of light the filter "takes away" when placed over the lens, 2/3 stop I believe.

Is any of this confusing? It is for a lot of people who are just getting into film, especially Super 8. Unfortunately it's not so easy to just get a camera, toss in a cartridge of film and point-and-shoot. Not without doing a little research and homework first. I teach Super 8 and 16mm film basics to a lot of new people, I find it a lot easier to learn if you have something you can visually see and be demonstrated to you. A great book is Cinematography by Kris Malkiewicz, and edition will work. You can pick up used older editions of the net for around $2-$5.
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#4 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 05:53 PM

The issue with the Canon 518 is that it has no manual exposure capability. Also it reads the ASA automatically from the cartridge.


I think you've made a mistake on this.

I double checked this on several websites and it appears that both Canon 518 cameras does have manual exposure.

http://super8wiki.co.../Category:Canon

http://www.kolumbus.fi/puistot/c.htm

Plus on the Kodak website there is no mention of the 64T problem being on this camera.

http://www.kodak.com...t...4.8.6&lc=en

Could you be confusing it with the Canon 514 cameras.

Edited by Andy_Alderslade, 01 August 2006 - 05:55 PM.

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#5 Nick Norton

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:02 PM

The issue with the Canon 518 is that it has no manual exposure capability. Also it reads the ASA automatically from the cartridge. Now in the past that wouldn't have been a problem. It was designed in an era where there were a handful of different film types and speeds (ASA). Today's film types and speeds are different from when the camera was built and what it was designed for. A lot of other cameras are the same way. A few models made by Nizo, Beaulieu, and possible other manufacturers were designed to accept a wide range of films speeds. Those cameras' light meters are still useable if so desired.

The workaround used today is utilizing a separate light meter and setting the camera's exposure manually. The problem with the Canon 518, and other cameras out there, is it has no ability for manual exposure. It only has an exposure lock switch which must be constantly held down to work, it is labeled (EE). This wouldn't be so much a pain if either the camera's meter was designed for a range of film speeds instead of specific ones. In which case you could use the meter, then hold down the exposure lock. However, unlike other automatic cameras, you can't place the exposure lock in position without constantly holding it down. This becomes tiresome and easy to slip, not to mention awkward since you can't run any other controls on the camera while both hands are busy.

So basically here's what you can do with the camera. You'll have to get a light meter, find the shutter speeds of your camera at the various frame rates, meter the light, point the camera at something until the automatic meter gives you the closest f-stop you need based on what your handheld meter says, then hold the exposure lock switch down and then shoot. Sound complicated and tedious? It is. I personally would recommend a different camera.

One more note, if you are using the Ekatchrome 64T in daylight you will need to buy a separate 85B filter to put onto your camera to compensate since the film is designed for indoor use. You will then need to adjust your meter for the amount of light the filter "takes away" when placed over the lens, 2/3 stop I believe.

Is any of this confusing? It is for a lot of people who are just getting into film, especially Super 8. Unfortunately it's not so easy to just get a camera, toss in a cartridge of film and point-and-shoot. Not without doing a little research and homework first. I teach Super 8 and 16mm film basics to a lot of new people, I find it a lot easier to learn if you have something you can visually see and be demonstrated to you. A great book is Cinematography by Kris Malkiewicz, and edition will work. You can pick up used older editions of the net for around $2-$5.



i really appreciate all the help, although i am a bit confused on your information.

on my canon auto zoom 518 there does not seem to be some of the functions you stated.

for one, there is nothing on the camera labelled "EE". all i can see is a dial labeled "AUTO" and you can turn it so it says "MANUAL". the only other buttons on the camera are one that determines the frame rate, the switch for the in-camera filter, and automatic zoom controls.

does anyone undertand what the dial is for? i am waiting for batteries i ordered offline for the light meter, so maybe i can figure that one out when the light meter is working.

also, i was looking for the 85B filter but my lense has an awkward 47.5mm thread. anyone know where i can get one?

thanks for all the help-

Nick Norton
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#6 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:14 PM

i really appreciate all the help, although i am a bit confused on your information.

on my canon auto zoom 518 there does not seem to be some of the functions you stated.

for one, there is nothing on the camera labelled "EE". all i can see is a dial labeled "AUTO" and you can turn it so it says "MANUAL". the only other buttons on the camera are one that determines the frame rate, the switch for the in-camera filter, and automatic zoom controls.


I think he's made a mistake confusing your 518 for a 514 (which has all the buttons he mentioned)

The dial is for selecting if you want AUTOmatic or MANUAL exposure control. If you want to simply point and shoot the Automatic will be fine. If you want more control (which will probably yield a better image) you use a MANUAL function with an external handheld light meter and use that to optain an f-stop which you set on your camera yourself. The lightmeter used properly will give you a more accurate exposure.

Its probably worth the effort to look for an online Manual, it will clear up many of your quieries.

About the filter, try the Cokin filter system, personally I would try shooting some film with it first - to test it works OK, it won't matter to much if you shoot the Ektachrome in sunlight, it will simply look a little blue. (you could even use the in-camera filter which will make it a little less blue)

Best of Luck

Edited by Andy_Alderslade, 01 August 2006 - 06:15 PM.

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#7 Bryan Darling

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:53 PM

Oops, you are right, it's the 514. Haha, sorry about that. As for the 47.5, are you sure you're not confusing the zoom lens focal length. I believe it's 9.5-47.5mm?

Edited by tornsprocket, 01 August 2006 - 06:56 PM.

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#8 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 05:37 AM

As for the 47.5, are you sure you're not confusing the zoom lens focal length. I believe it's 9.5-47.5mm?


He's right, 47.5 is the maximum focal length not the lens thread diameter.

here it says there in an outer and inner lens thread of 50mm and 48mm respectively.

http://www.canon.com...18sv_sp8_s.html

You can check this yourself with a ruler, the diameter accross the thread.
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#9 Bryan Darling

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:52 PM

B&H Photo has a great assortment of filters at the best prices I've seen around. Tiffen filters are inexpensive and decent quality, especially for Super 8. Other brands are B+W, Hoya, and Lee. B+W are excellent quality filters, but you'll pay more. I feel they aren't as necessary for Super 8 work, but then I'm sure there are others that are more purist when it comes to filter quality who would disagree.
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#10 Chris Gravat

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 06:38 PM

okay, so i have enjoyed reading this thread. and of course i have a few comments.

The "EE", that means Electronic Exposure.... same thing as auto. Just make sure you enter your ASA on the dial.

As far as the whole ASA thing goes, it works the same way as ISO for your SLR camera.

Slow film (64 ASA, 100 ASA) you get alot tighter grain and need alot of light. The higher your ASA the more grainy the film will be and the less light you will need.

I would get into the whole silver halide crystal size differing with different ASA's, but what i stated above should get you where you need to go as far as a basic understanding of ASA.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL
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#11 Nick Norton

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 10:45 PM

okay, so i have enjoyed reading this thread. and of course i have a few comments.

The "EE", that means Electronic Exposure.... same thing as auto. Just make sure you enter your ASA on the dial.



Enter the ASA on the dial? i am near positive my camera does not have a dial for ASA. Should my camera detect the ASA automatically?

i really appreciate all the help, i am impressed how much help is available on this forum.

thanks-

Nick Norton
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#12 Chris Gravat

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 11:02 PM

Enter the ASA on the dial? i am near positive my camera does not have a dial for ASA. Should my camera detect the ASA automatically?

i really appreciate all the help, i am impressed how much help is available on this forum.

thanks-

Nick Norton



I do not have any experience with the 518, but if there is no manual setting then the ASA will be read via a notch in the film cartridge.

I was doing some reading and the downside MIGHT be that your internal meter will only recognize 64(T) ASA. If that is the case and you are wanting to shoot a faster speed film then I would suggest getting an incident light meter. The meter will allow you to enter your ASA and shutter speed (360/shutter angle x fps) and will give you a reading in T-Stops.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL
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#13 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:20 AM

I was doing some reading and the downside MIGHT be that your internal meter will only recognize 64(T) ASA. If that is the case and you are wanting to shoot a faster speed film then I would suggest getting an incident light meter. The meter will allow you to enter your ASA and shutter speed (360/shutter angle x fps) and will give you a reading in T-Stops.


As already said twice, the 518 is listed as having no problems with 64T ASA.

Like the majority of super 8 cameras the 518 probably only recognises the ASA off the cartridge notches. As far as I am aware only the Beaulieu camera's alow you to input the ASA manually.
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#14 Chris Gravat

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:35 PM

As already said twice, the 518 is listed as having no problems with 64T ASA.

Like the majority of super 8 cameras the 518 probably only recognises the ASA off the cartridge notches. As far as I am aware only the Beaulieu camera's alow you to input the ASA manually.


I am not doubting that it doesn't have problems with 64 ASA, as that was the most common stock in super 8's hay day. what I was curious about was whether or not the meter was calibrated to read anything other than 64 ASA. I guess you missed that part.

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#15 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:58 PM

I am not doubting that it doesn't have problems with 64 ASA, as that was the most common stock in super 8's hay day. what I was curious about was whether or not the meter was calibrated to read anything other than 64 ASA. I guess you missed that part.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL



Sorry I misread exactly what you said, but the Ektachrome 64T is actually a new stock, which has litteraly been out for just over a year.

Before that the most common stock was Kodachrome 40 which had an ASA of 40 in tungsten. Subsequently many lowgrade super 8 cameras can only read ASAs 40 and 160. That's why there is an issue of many super 8 camera's not reading 64T correctly.

The chances are if it can read 64T correctly then it will read all the other films correctly, with the exception of of Vision 2 500T as the ASA is so high. Even so if a camera has a manual exposure feature, like the 518 does, it can shoot anything as you can use it with a handheld incident meter.
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#16 Chris Gravat

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:08 PM

Sorry I misread exactly what you said, but the Ektachrome 64T is actually a new stock, which has litteraly been out for just over a year.

Before that the most common stock was Kodachrome 40 which had an ASA of 40 in tungsten. Subsequently many lowgrade super 8 cameras can only read ASAs 40 and 160. That's why there is an issue of many super 8 camera's not reading 64T correctly.

The chances are if it can read 64T correctly then it will read all the other films correctly, with the exception of of Vision 2 500T as the ASA is so high. Even so if a camera has a manual exposure feature, like the 518 does, it can shoot anything as you can use it with a handheld incident meter.


cool, thanks for clearing that up. I am pretty new to super 8 cams, glad I could learn something today.

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#17 Erik Vilhelm

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 06:50 AM

Sorry I misread exactly what you said, but the Ektachrome 64T is actually a new stock, which has litteraly been out for just over a year.

Before that the most common stock was Kodachrome 40 which had an ASA of 40 in tungsten. Subsequently many lowgrade super 8 cameras can only read ASAs 40 and 160. That's why there is an issue of many super 8 camera's not reading 64T correctly.

The chances are if it can read 64T correctly then it will read all the other films correctly, with the exception of of Vision 2 500T as the ASA is so high. Even so if a camera has a manual exposure feature, like the 518 does, it can shoot anything as you can use it with a handheld incident meter.


Does anyone know if the Minolta XL 84 Sound misreads the 64T notch like Minolta XL-401 and XL-601? Or if it exposes the E64T film correctly?

Another question:
In the instruction manual of the camera, it is stated that it can handle daylight ASA 25 or 100, and tungsten 40 or 160. Does this mean my camera can auto expose for example Kodak ectachrome 100d (which is 100 daylight and 25 tungsten)? The ASA number fits the daylight speeds supported, but not the tungsten..?
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#18 Bryan Darling

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 05:39 PM

If the instructions state 25 or 100 and 40 or 160, then those are the only speeds in which the meter will work properly. As for the E100D, Kodak itself does not manufacture it in Super 8 cartridges. There is at least one 3rd party vendor I know of that repackages it for Super 8. As to how they notch it, I am unsure. It would be best to contact whomever you are going to buy the E100D from and ask them how it is notched.

Hope that helps.

Does anyone know if the Minolta XL 84 Sound misreads the 64T notch like Minolta XL-401 and XL-601? Or if it exposes the E64T film correctly?

Another question:
In the instruction manual of the camera, it is stated that it can handle daylight ASA 25 or 100, and tungsten 40 or 160. Does this mean my camera can auto expose for example Kodak ectachrome 100d (which is 100 daylight and 25 tungsten)? The ASA number fits the daylight speeds supported, but not the tungsten..?


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#19 Erik Vilhelm

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 04:48 AM

If the instructions state 25 or 100 and 40 or 160, then those are the only speeds in which the meter will work properly. As for the E100D, Kodak itself does not manufacture it in Super 8 cartridges. There is at least one 3rd party vendor I know of that repackages it for Super 8. As to how they notch it, I am unsure. It would be best to contact whomever you are going to buy the E100D from and ask them how it is notched.

Hope that helps.


Ok, thanks!
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#20 Matthew Buick

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 01:10 PM

Cameras like the Canon 1014 XLS, and the Nikon R10, have a Exposure Overide.
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