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Definition of "As is"


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#1 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:41 PM

My definition of "as is" is the seller of a product didn't bother to fully test the item.

However, I think sellers use the term "as is" to fib about their product.

If the seller KNOWLY sells an item with an easy to find defect and does not disclose it and instead states the item is "as is" the seller MUST be willing to take back the item if the buyer realizes there is a problem within a short amount of time.

What do I mean by easy to find problem? An obvious dent on the product, the product does not power up, after a short time of being on something obvious goes wrong (such as the unit begins to emit smoke, make a funny sound, or display a strange characteristic) or the physical buttons on the unit do not work. If any of those things go wrong, "as is" should not allow the seller to get away with fraud and deception.

Agree or disagree?

So what does "as is" mean? The unit is not guaranteed for long term reliability and if after working properly for a short while, cannot be returned.
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#2 Oscar Godfrey

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 12:58 AM

I agree if there is an obvious dent or broken part. however if it is a functional problem like power and the seller says that they have not tested it i think that is part of the risk you take. I bought a polaroid off ebay that didn't work because the film door wouldn't lock because a part had snapped off. The seller obviously knew it was broken and did not mention it in the auction.
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#3 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 01:39 AM

The seller obviously knew it was broken and did not mention it in the auction.


This is the wiggle room that I am curious about. I bought a monitor on ebay "as is". The seller did a clever thing, they took a picture of the color bars and the color bars looked out of phase. It turns out the red gun is no longer working.

I can tell they diddled with the television because the chroma knob was turned up all the way and the front panel adjustments for the red gun were also turned up all the way. Technically, one can argue they are in the clear and I have no recourse because they did show a picture of the screen that shows the colors are daffy, however, there is also TWO time code window burns that are permanently burned into the screen. They took just a couple of minutes to appear once the monitor was turned on, and those were not shown in the pictures.

Clearly the seller knew the unit needed multiple repairs and the ony way to mask the burn in window burns was to take the picture of the monitor when the monitor had just been turned on.

So I guess another question I have is, if the seller KNOWS there is something wrong with a unit, does selling it as is completely absolve them of any responsibility? If one answers yes, than that means "as is" means exactly the same thing as NEEDS REPAIR, and I doubt anybody would agree with that "as is" has the identical meaning to "needs repair".
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 02:11 AM

My definition of "as is" is the seller of a product didn't bother to fully test the item.


Hi,

IMHO "as is" means "as is", nothing more. It may or may not work, bids should take this into account.

Stephen
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#5 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:02 AM

Hi,

IMHO "as is" means "as is", nothing more. It may or may not work, bids should take this into account.

Stephen


I'm not going to deny the beautiful simplicity of your position.

But your position creates no difference between a broken piece of equipment and the phrase "as is". Don't you believe the terms "as is" and "broken" are not mirror terms?
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 04:39 AM

I'm not going to deny the beautiful simplicity of your position.

But your position creates no difference between a broken piece of equipment and the phrase "as is". Don't you believe the terms "as is" and "broken" are not mirror terms?


Hi,

The seller does not guarantee the item works! Not DOA is better!

In many countries "As is" & "As is where is" have a legal meaning. The seller is using them so that the buyer is not confused as to the terms of the sale. Bid accordingly.

Stephen
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#7 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:33 AM

I'm not going to deny the beautiful simplicity of your position.

But your position creates no difference between a broken piece of equipment and the phrase "as is". Don't you believe the terms "as is" and "broken" are not mirror terms?


You forget other description of condition of piece.

The piece can have different condition.
The very good description had KEH ( seller of used photo, video equipments ).

" like new , open for view only". - full work, not use.
" excellent condition " - full work, but, had short time of use.
" used condition", use a some time.
The used device can be tested, full work and not work condition and need repair.
Who can check this ? The device can check owner, if the owner know, what need do.
The many owner told, what know not any about device, or wish tell this only.
That's why, you have not any guarantee, what you buy.

If the seller say " as is ", the seller know not condition of device, can not test and you buy, what you see.
This can be full scrap metal , but, this can work too. This is a some intrigue for buyer, like roulette wheel.
That's why, the seller must be ready to received full scap metal or body with empty inside.
And, the price of device with condition " as is " must be like price of scrap metal or price of body only.

The many devices on e-buy sell private person, and not good idea to ask of full guarantee from old owner.
The old owner not manufacturer and can not give you guarantee of manufacturer.
You can buy new device from shop or manufacturer with full guarantee of manufacturer, but, the device can have high price and you not wish pay big price. That's why, we seek second hand device with small price. That's why, we agree take a some risk of condition of device.
I buy devices from e-buy too and had devices with very good condition and had devices with problem.

The other big side of this problem - real swindling. This is, if you pay and not receive device or receive other device. The seller told about high work condition of device, you received " scrap metal ", and more ets.
Yes of course, if the device have serious defect and seller told about excellent work condition- this is swindling And need give customer complaint and ask about return of device.
But, what return of money ? This can be not possible.
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#8 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 08:05 PM

If the seller say " as is ", the seller know not condition of device, can not test and you buy, what you see.


I found out a couple of things. First off, I was directed to another auction this seller had up by a friend.
The friend didn't know I had bid on the monitor as well. He was aware of the monitor and told me the "recent history" about the monitor. The seller had tried to sell the monitor numerous times before, even offering a guarantee, lol, which all the previous winners had obviously taken him up on.

Clearly, the term "as is", in this instance, was used to avoid telling the full extent of what the owner already knew to be true about the condition of the unit. At this point, even if I got a refund, I'd be into the unit for over fifty dollars in shipping costs alone.

Rather than return the item, if the seller agrees to give me a partial refund I then face the dilemma of letting bad behavior go unflagged. Reselling an item with an obvious defect that previous auction winners had already pointed out to the seller who now is trying to hide behind the phrase "as is", is behavior that deserves to be outed, no?

But if I out this person with a negative feedback "Seller keeps reselling this same item yet claims to not know that it is defective", I'll get a negative feedback in return. This is exactly what I hate about eBay.
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#9 Michael Collier

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 08:25 PM

I object to the ads that say in obvious form fassion "unless otherwise noted this auction is being sold as is..." Its like a 'don't blame us' clause. This goes on EVERYTHING they sell. As is should be things being sold for parts. This is an arri camera, its motion is completely broken, so its sold AS IS. not heres this great device, great paint, started it up and works, sold as is. its a total cop out.
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#10 Tim Carroll

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 08:27 PM

Anything I see on eBay that is listed "as is" I consider a boat anchor. If it happens to work, that's a bonus. I only bid on things on eBay with an "as-is" if it is something I can take apart and use the parts from.

I have always equated "as is" on eBay with "It doesn't work and may not be fixable, and I, the seller, will not be responsible for it not working and not being fixable when you receive it".

Now if someone lists and item and says "I just used this and it's working great. Being sold 'as is' ", then I think that seller is a fraud, because he is saying "It works great so bid alot of money on this, but I won't be responsible if it doesn't work when you get it."

-Tim
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#11 Keneu Luca

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 08:44 PM

What is the origin of this term?

And what would the alternative of "as is" be? What - is the seller going to fix or repair the item before they send it to you? OF course the items are sold as is; is the item going to transform while it is being shipped to you?

There must be someone or some company that is brainstorming an ebay alternative. Actually, this sounds like a new thread idea.
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#12 Dan Goulder

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 09:01 PM

"As is" is generally used as a legal protection, meaning the seller is not legally bound to accept a return. Although the expression may tend to put people off, it by no means implies a defective product. However, a prospective buyer has every reason to expect a detailed description of the working condition. If no such description is given other than "as is", then suspicion is warranted. Ask detailed questions, as well as considering feedback. If still suspicious, insist on escrow, which will weed out the frauds.
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#13 Chris Pritzlaff

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 09:25 PM

thats the whole problem with ebay and other auction sites. There never is enough protection for the buyer. I only buy from the vendors directly now - its too much trouble otherwise
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 09:52 AM

Is it fair to use the selling of a house as an analogy?

Houses can be sold "as is", the term used is "fixer upper", but, the seller STILL MUST disclose anything they know to be wrong with the home to anyone interested in purchasing the home.

On ebay, "as is" is being used to mask already known knowledge about a defective item that is being auctioned off.

If we follow the intent of "as is" in the way it's used on ebay, one could conceiveably sell a stolen item on eBay and call it "as is" as long as they didn't actually steal it themselves!

How about this idea.

Mini forums that would appear at the bottom of each auction. But unlike the current system in which questions are asked and answered and sometimes appear at the bottom of the auction, the posed question would INSTANTLY appear on the auction whether or not the seller answers the question and the amount of time before the question is answered by the seller could be just as telling as the answer itself.

This would also allow prior buyers of the same piece of crap to warn fellow buyers, "I just bid on this item last week and returned it because it didn't work", the seller still has the ability to refute the claim if the truth is on their side.

I consider it an abuse of the eBay system to try and resell an item over and over that has an obvious defect yet never verbally mention the defect.
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#15 Dan Goulder

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 10:36 AM

To be fair, not everyone out there is dishonest and looking to take advantage of buyers. I've had over 50 transactions on ebay without getting burned. Sellers with established, positive feedback generally tend to be conscientious and trustworthy. People who own and/or sell professional motion picture gear normally treat that gear with respect, and will be upfront about condition or missing parts. Most sellers on ebay want to avoid negative feedback, and aren't out to scam. Regarding fraudulent listings: They should be easy to spot, especially when the "seller" insists on being contacted outside of the ebay e-mail system.
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#16 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 02:43 PM

What is the origin of this term?

And what would the alternative of "as is" be? What - is the seller going to fix or repair the item before they send it to you? OF course the items are sold as is; is the item going to transform while it is being shipped to you?

There must be someone or some company that is brainstorming an ebay alternative. Actually, this sounds like a new thread idea.


I think there are different phrases that work better without completely diminishing the allure of the item. "Guaranteed not to be DOA on arrival." "Item powers up but will need maintenance/repair for proper functionality." "Item powers up but will need some servicing and parts."
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#17 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:33 PM

One other rather amusing aspect to this story, (not from my point of view but I have to admit it is funny).

The seller uses wet foam in a can as insulation so the item doesn't get damaged in shipping. The wet foam is sprayed between two layers of plastic sheeting material and the product is dropped into the center and the wet but insulated foam forms a barrier aruond the item. The seller charges $20.00 dollars for "handling" for this service. When I won the auction I considered driving to pick it up because I had won two items from this person and I thought I might save 30 or 40 bucks in shipping & boxing charges.

I was informed that the package was ALREADY PACKAGED (prior to the auction being over) and the $20.00 handling charge would have to be paid even if I picked up the unit. But if this seller keeps selling the same defective unit over and over, and keeps charging the same $20.00 dollar handling fee TO EACH AND EVERY WINNING BIDDER even though he can use the same insulation over and over, is the goal to make a quick 20 bucks by charging everyone a non-refundable handling charge?

Talk about the ultimate low level scam, gladly give back every one their money but keep the handling charges from an item that gets sold over and over but is obviously defective. I don't think that is their intent but 20 bucks is 20 bucks and what makes the scam work so well is everyone is happy just to get their auction money back so they think the seller is a swell guy.
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