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The ultimate over-ambitious newbie thread about Vision 2 200t-film


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#1 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 10:40 AM

Hi, this is my first post here. I have done several projects on video, but I am a newbie to super 8.

The last few weeks I have spent hours and hours reading through posts regarding the Vision 2 200t-film, and I'm still not confident that i get it right. As I am a beginner, I'll allow myself to ask stupid questions, allthough they now doubt have been asked and answered x times before :-)

I currently have two cameras, one Nizo professional with a working internal lightmeter, and a Nikon R10 with a dead internal lightmeter. I will use an external lightmeter with the Nikon, and external daylight filter with both whilst shooting outside.

I've read that any camera reading the notches correctly, will set this film to 100 ASA, thereby overexposing it with a stop.

I've also read that if the internal filter is engaged, the film will be exposed at 160 ASA, because the filter will take away light according to about 2/3 of a stop.

But, I want to use an external daylight filter, as there is to much dirt on the internal one.
Will the film be exposed at approximately 160 ASA if I use an external filter screwed onto the lens?

Scenario A - I dont't cut a filter notch in the cartridge.

1. At what ASA will the camera rate the film inside?

2. At what ASA will the camera rate the film outside if using an external daylight filter?

3. If not cutting a filter notch, it should have nothing to say wether the internal filter is positioned on the sun-symbol or the light bulb-symbol, as no filter will be engaged anyway?


Scenario B - I cut a filter notch in the cartridge.

4. At what ASA will the camera rate the film inside?

5. At what ASA will the camera rate the film outside if using an external daylight filter?

6. If using an external daylight filter, should the camera be positioned at the light-bulb-symbol or the sun-symbol while shooting outside? If at the light-bulb, no internal filter will be applied?

General questions:
7. How much is to much overexposure for this stock?

8. With the Nikon R10, I have the possibility to enter the ASA numbers manually. What should i rate the vision 2 200t when filming inside, and outside
- with daylight filter
- without daylight filter

9. If using vision 2 500t, what should I rate it inside and outside
- with daylight filter?
- without daylight filter?

10. At what ASA will the Vision 2 500 be rated by the camera
- if without filter-notch, with external daylight filter?
- if without filter-notch, without external daylight filter?
- if with a filter-notch cut out, with external daylight filter?
- if witout filter-notch, without external daylight filter?

I guess I want strait, "factifying" answers to these questions, but I fully understand that a lot of this is up to the individuals personal taste. I'm just trying to understand my cameras better, before I'm going to shoot 5-6 test rolls, whilst carefully making notes of metering, light, stops'n'starts'n'justaboudaeverythingelse.

Hope somebody will try to answer some of these questions!

Best regards from Bjarne in Oslo, Norway, where no ice bears are roaming the streets this evening.
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#2 Chris Graham

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:04 AM

You should get into a habit of always using an external light meter. You'll learn DOF lighting and techniques within different areas of your frame. "Test shooting/trial and error" Best way of learning magical exposure. ;)
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#3 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:16 AM

You should get into a habit of always using an external light meter. You'll learn DOF lighting and techniques within different areas of your frame. "Test shooting/trial and error" Best way of learning magical exposure. ;)


hehe, thanks for the advice! I do plan on using an external lightmeter, but still I would very much like to know for sure the answers to the above questions :-)

Best regards from Oslo, Norway, where the polar bear sweats tonight.
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#4 steve hyde

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:26 AM

Bjarne,

Forget the notches and use the manual exposure controls. For most shots I rate 7217 at ASA 100 and 7218 at ASA 250 (sometimes ASA 200 in really flat light). If you are using a filter on the lens set the internal filter to the sunshine (daylight) so you don't double filter. Kodak Vision2 color negatives are flexible so don't worry too much. Be experimental with your tests. Your Nikon R10 shoots single frames and a cartridge of super 8 has 3600 frames. Take advantage of this feature and go out and do lots of camera set ups on a tripod. Zoom-in on the subject you are photographing to pull focus - then zoom back out to compose the shot and bracket your exposures from under to over using the single frame mode. (then of course do your motion picture tests)

just an idea... let me know if you need a owners manual for the R10.... I've not used a Nizo Professional

have fun,

Steve
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#5 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:07 PM

The Kodak VISION2 films have very good exposure latitude, especially for overexposure. A stop or so of overexposure will generally give finer grain, as more information is placed on the finer-grained mid and slow emulsions, rather than the faster (larger) grained emulsions. Don't overdo the overexposure, as a very dense negative may be more difficult to transfer, and more prone to electronic noise if the telecine/scanner doesn't have enough light and needs to operate at higher gain for a dense negative.

For Daylight or HMI, use an 85 filter. Tungsten light (3200K) requires no filter.

Cartridge notching is specified by standard SMPTE 166.
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#6 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:58 PM

Thanks a lot for your answers, Steve and John! I guess I shouldn't worry, as I'm going to test things thoroughly. Shooting one or just a few frames at a time for testing purposes was a good tip. Guess I could use 3600 different setups per roll of film, but then again, I might settle for half (I know, I'm lazy :-)

I have made a test-scheme, and I'll be shooting each test subject, and object, at 1, then 2 stops under the lightmeter-reading, then 1 and 2 stops over, and of course the setting indicated by the lightmeter. This should give me a pretty good idea of which settings are best to use in different situations, I hope.

About this though, "If you are using a filter on the lens set the internal filter to the sunshine (daylight) so you don't double filter", if I set the internal filter to sunshine, wouldn't I risk having two sunshine-filters? but I suppose the non-existing filter notch won't allow any internal filter to be used anyway?
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#7 steve hyde

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

...you are correct. I was wrong... I got mixed up. Yes put the key in to displace the daylight filter on your R10 and do what ever you have to do on the Nizo... go to lightbulb..

good catch,

Steve
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#8 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:17 PM

The 200T cartridges currently do NOT have a filter notch, so the use of an external 85 filter is assumed.

Since there is no filter notch, the X=0.5 inch speed notch would set any automatic exposure for EI-100 (one stop overexposed with tungsten light).
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#9 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:33 PM

The 200T cartridges currently do NOT have a filter notch, so the use of an external 85 filter is assumed.

Since there is no filter notch, the X=0.5 inch speed notch would set any automatic exposure for EI-100 (one stop overexposed with tungsten light).



Thanks again for taking time to answer me! So, basically, the above means that:

- Shooting inside, without sunlight filter the film will be exposed at EI-100.
- Shooting outside, with an external sunlight filter, the film will be exposed at EI-160.

Hopefully, I finally got this now. Guess I'll be doing quite a lot of testing this weekend!
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:47 PM

Thanks again for taking time to answer me! So, basically, the above means that:

- Shooting inside, without sunlight filter the film will be exposed at EI-100.
- Shooting outside, with an external sunlight filter, the film will be exposed at EI-160.

Hopefully, I finally got this now. Guess I'll be doing quite a lot of testing this weekend!


The X=0.5 inch speed notch without a filter notch makes the camera treat the film like an EI-100 daylight balance film, that is, the internal orange filter will NOT be automatically inserted. So using an external 85 filter in daylight will either attenuate the light by 2/3 stop and have the camera automatically compensate for the filter insertion (through the lens meter), or not compensate (external meter) for the external filter.
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#11 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 02:30 PM

The X=0.5 inch speed notch without a filter notch makes the camera treat the film like an EI-100 daylight balance film, that is, the internal orange filter will NOT be automatically inserted. So using an external 85 filter in daylight will either attenuate the light by 2/3 stop and have the camera automatically compensate for the filter insertion (through the lens meter), or not compensate (external meter) for the external filter.


Ah, of course! It didn't cross my mind that I have to compensate for the light loss.

The nizo professional has a working internal through the lens lightmeter. I went and tried it now, and it did indeed compensate with about 2/3 of a stop.

As my Nikon doesn't have a working internal lightmeter, I will no surely calculate in the light loss of 2/3 of a stop when metering externally while using an external filter, shooting in daylight.

thanks for all the good advice, this was a maybe a small step for mankind, but a super-8 leap for me :-)

Best regards, Bjarne, Oslo, Norway.
My home-valley, Setesdal - it will look great in super 8!
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#12 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:11 PM

If you haven't shot much S8, one of the most criticle things is focus. make sure your spit image in the view finder is dialed in tight. practice focusing on well lit objects with the split image. Nizo Pro should over expose around 2/3rd... just lock it there to prevent pulsing and you'll be good. Then find a good place to have it transferred.

Edited by Skratch, 04 August 2006 - 03:11 PM.

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#13 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:30 PM

If you haven't shot much S8, one of the most criticle things is focus. make sure your spit image in the view finder is dialed in tight. practice focusing on well lit objects with the split image. Nizo Pro should over expose around 2/3rd... just lock it there to prevent pulsing and you'll be good. Then find a good place to have it transferred.


Thanks for the advice, Skratch. I am aware that focusing is critical, and I will be very carefull when setting the focus. I was thinking of measuring the distance with , uhm, I'm not sure what it's called in English, but say a-roll- of-tape-you-measure-length-with :-)

I take it you have a nizo your self, or experience with one, so I'll ask you this; If I aim at pole or something, at full zoom, I find it somewhat hard to get the lines in the split image to align perfectly. Almost, but not perfect. Do you think I am doing something wrong, could the camera be somewhat of, or maybe the pole wasn't strait :-)
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#14 S8 Booster

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 05:05 PM

youll find anything you need to know about this at the norwegian based s8 site inkl images of cart notching:
http://filmshooting....9ff147d4b4b2ef7
search the forum.



one clue
exposing Vision 200T & Nikon R10

Edited by S8 Booster, 04 August 2006 - 05:05 PM.

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#15 S8 Booster

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 05:19 PM

http://filmshooting....c4f31c0cadd4d63
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#16 Bjarne Eldhuset

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 05:40 PM

http://filmshooting....c4f31c0cadd4d63

1
Hi, S8 Booster, where in Norway are you at?

Actually, since i bought some film from norsk smalfilm, I've spent hours and hours on filmshooting.com, and read just about every thread on this subject. I guess i just got too much information/discussion to get a grip on this subject. Since it's not been possible to register for a while, during the holidays, I haven't been able to ask my silly questions on filmshooting.com, but I'll join there too as soon as new users can register

Then I'll haunt both forums til I drop, because at the moment I'm reading just about everything I come across regarding super-8 :-)
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