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Using the video tap for dalies?


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#1 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 03:27 AM

Has anyone ever tried using the video tap ran to a dv deck to record dalies? I seams to me that, that would be a great way of cutting production expenses and checking you takes for mistakes and focus ect. Surely I'm not the first one to think of this. Is there a reason it won't work or is it already done regularly? B)
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#2 Chris Pritzlaff

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 03:57 AM

Has anyone ever tried using the video tap ran to a dv deck to record dalies? I seams to me that, that would be a great way of cutting production expenses and checking you takes for mistakes and focus ect. Surely I'm not the first one to think of this. Is there a reason it won't work or is it already done regularly? B)


I did it once - the quality was poor though - basically was only useful for the director, editor, and script supervisor to go back and review what had been shot. Other than that, the image quality was so poor that it was pretty useless to anyone else. Keep in mind that this was a low budget student film, and the quality of the equipment was in question so it may actually be more practical with better equipment.
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#3 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 04:47 AM

I wouldn't use the video tap for anything but a general sense of what's going on. It's no good for judging exposure or critical focus. Checking framing is OK, but you could still be missing important detail within the frame. You may be able to judge performance from it too, I guess it just depends how nuanced the performance is, and how wide the shot is.

If none of these things bother you, and you just want some material for a rough offline edit, I suppose it would work.

BTW, a question like this is probably better off in general discussion, rather than Film Stocks & Processing.
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 08:34 AM

It's one thing to record the tap for reference, but it's not the same as dailies.

Dailies exist first of all to tell you if your footage came out OK, so if you don't develop and look at the footage, it could be blank for all you know, or you could have a severe camera or lens problem.

Secondly, editing is for the purpose of generating an EDL that can be matched to the film, which requires developing the film so you can read the keycode numbers when doing the telecine of dailies (or workprinting and seeing the edgecodes). Otherwise you have no way of matching the offline edit to the negative for conforming. The only possible solution to this is to burn the same timecode on the film as on the video tap display, but even then, you'd never know if it was being done correctly if you don't process the neg and look at it.
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#5 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 04:58 PM

Actually, you could re-match or conform backwards from the video tap's timecode back to keykode by syncing to the hole punch at the beginning of each roll, but it's a bit of a hassle.
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 09:30 PM

Actually, you could re-match or conform backwards from the video tap's timecode back to keykode by syncing to the hole punch at the beginning of each roll, but it's a bit of a hassle.


I don't understand how that would eliminate the need for processing the neg before editing. You edit a video tap image with TC, there's no reference to the original frames on the (later) processed film except for slates, but those would be gone in the final edit. Unless you use Aatoncode or Arricode to burn the same TC on film as on the video tap.

But none of that solves the first problem, which is that for all you know, your footage might be unusable -- you won't know if you don't develop it and get a neg report, or telecine / print it and look at it.
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#7 Hal Smith

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 11:06 PM

But none of that solves the first problem, which is that for all you know, your footage might be unusable -- you won't know if you don't develop it and get a neg report, or telecine / print it and look at it.

What labs do you trust for negative reports when you're using DVD dailies on location?
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 11:52 PM

What labs do you trust for negative reports when you're using DVD dailies on location?


Hopefully you're trusting the lab doing the developing!

I must say that lately I've been disappointed at the major labs in terms of quality control -- lots of dust problems these days, as if they are relying on D.I.'s to clean it all up for them. And at the opposite end, there are the poor release prints that get sent out to the hinterlands.

I just got some dailies for pick-ups shots I did, and this whole roll had horrible white smears, like a dirty window with some bad squeegee work, in a pattern of every twenty seconds or so.

Found out that the lab, in the dark, felt some rough edges on the film but no broken perfs, but just in case, applied some backing to the film before they ran it through the processor, but did not pull off the backing cleanly, leaving all this crap on the negative. After we freaked out from the dailies transfer, they tried re-cleaning it and then tried running it a second time through the processor, which got rid of the smears but left some occasional big bits of white dust/dirt which will have to be digitally erased if that part of the take is used.
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#9 Hal Smith

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 12:02 AM

I must say that lately I've been disappointed at the major labs in terms of quality control -- lots of dust problems these days

That's somewhat depressing. It sounds like some labs are starting to buy the "film is dead" BS and starting to "take the money and run". Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, no? Nothing will kill film quicker than unavailability of good lab work.
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:21 AM

That's somewhat depressing. It sounds like some labs are starting to buy the "film is dead" BS and starting to "take the money and run". Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, no? Nothing will kill film quicker than unavailability of good lab work.


The few labs that consistently do second-rate work will fall by the wayside. All labs have "bad days" when an occasional job is done poorly or an accident happens. Often traceable to a person who wasn't trained properly, or is having a "bad day" themselves. The good labs follow up on all problems, and take corrective action.

In David's case, putting tape on the back side of the film was evidently done to assure there was not a break in the machine due to something the lab technician detected during pre-process inspection. But the tape keeps the rem-jet from being properly removed during processing, and I suspect some of the tape adhesive remained on the back-side when the film was reprocessed, leaving bits of rem-jet/tape debris on the processed film. In hindsight, permission should have been requested before using tape on the back side of the film, and the options discussed beforehand.
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#11 Timothy David Orme

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:37 AM

If you're an independent film maker that uses 30 year old cameras to shoot films, dailies are just as much about checking how the camera's running as they are checking the focus, framing etc. I always make sure the cameras are properly serviced, but over longer shoots I never know what to expect.

I've never shot with a video tap, but I've thought about it quite a bit. This forum is making me wonder what good they actually are...?
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#12 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 12:56 PM

If you're an independent film maker that uses 30 year old cameras to shoot films, dailies are just as much about checking how the camera's running as they are checking the focus, framing etc. I always make sure the cameras are properly serviced, but over longer shoots I never know what to expect.

I've never shot with a video tap, but I've thought about it quite a bit. This forum is making me wonder what good they actually are...?


To give the director something to disagree with the DP on. ;)

Well if you have steadycam, cran or jib shots the're unavoidable.

I saw an interview with Christopher Nolan the other day and he was saying how he never watches a monitor in production, but rather trusts the DP's framing and stands as close to the lens as possible to watch the acting - feeling the human eye has a closer level of detail to high end formats than a tiny monitor screen does.
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#13 timHealy

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 01:09 PM

I've never shot with a video tap


nor has Sidney Lumet. I have worked on two of his movies shot in film where he sits next to the camera and watches the actors instead of watching a monitor. It is a refreshing way to watch him trust the operator and do without a component of filmmaking that is relied on way too much.

Video monitors are great for directing from a committee, like on a commercial or giving the hair makeup departments a place to set up their chairs...snicker.

Some filmmakers may use a video tap but prevent them from becoming a place where half the crew watches over their shoulders as what typically happens.

personally I would love to know if Sidney has been affected by HD. His last sevreral jobs have been shot on HD and I would love to know if he works as he used to with film.

Best

Tim
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#14 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 12:26 AM

That's somewhat depressing. It sounds like some labs are starting to buy the "film is dead" BS and starting to "take the money and run". Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, no? Nothing will kill film quicker than unavailability of good lab work.


FILM BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE DEAD!!! I just spent a s*#tload of money buying film equipment!!!! :angry:
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#15 Chris Pritzlaff

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 12:29 AM

FILM BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE DEAD!!! I just spent a s*#tload of money buying film equipment!!!! :angry:



Didn't you hear? Kodak and Fuji were bought out by Red : )
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#16 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 02:33 AM

Int Genesis cave

Capt. Video holds up his arms, communicator in hand, shaking his fists in defiance.


Capt. Video

(Blasting, soul tortured cry of agony) RRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
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