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Lenses for Super 16


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#1 bragis chut

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 01:36 PM

Hi:

I'm hoping someone in these forums can clarify a few points for me. Are the Ultra Primes designed for super16 or are they 35mm lenses? Ditto with the Cooke s4's... Are these 35mm or super16?

Reason I'm asking is this: if they are actually 35mm lenses, then they would have a different appearance when applied to super16, correct? What I mean is, a 16mm designed for 35 will have a different look than a 16mm designed for 16. I've been told it will appear like a longer lense, roughly double the mm.

I've seen other discussions on this point, and I've seen many people make the point that the focal length does not double. But won't the lense still appear to be longer?

Please clarify,

--Gallantyne
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 01:52 PM

Hi:

I'm hoping someone in these forums can clarify a few points for me. Are the Ultra Primes designed for super16 or are they 35mm lenses? Ditto with the Cooke s4's... Are these 35mm or super16?

Reason I'm asking is this: if they are actually 35mm lenses, then they would have a different appearance when applied to super16, correct? What I mean is, a 16mm designed for 35 will have a different look than a 16mm designed for 16. I've been told it will appear like a longer lense, roughly double the mm.

I've seen other discussions on this point, and I've seen many people make the point that the focal length does not double. But won't the lense still appear to be longer?

Please clarify,

--Gallantyne


Hi,

Ultra Primes & S4's are designed for 35mm, they are however used every day for S16mm. Cooke has some wider lenses designed for S16 to compliment the longer lenses. Zeiss have some Ultra 16mm lens to fill out their set too.

Focal length remains identical regardless of format. A lens designed for 35mm will probably be heavier as the lens has to cover a larger format. Just imagine cropping a 35mm frame to S16mm.

Stephen
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#3 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 07:09 PM

I've seen other discussions on this point, and I've seen many people make the point that the focal length does not double. But won't the lense still appear to be longer?


Try to think of it this way. Imagine you have a 35mm SLR with a 50 MM lens. You forus on a someone's house. You stand far enough away to get the whole house, the garage and the side yard in your shot. NOW you put the same lens on a35mm movie camera. Still shooting from the same spot. Now the frame you are shooting is smaller, so you might only gte in the front porch, and the sideyard, garagaes and part of the hosue is cut off.

The image on the film is exactly the same size as before, if you were to stack up the negatives on a light box, they would line up.

Now switch the lens to a super16 Camera. Image area is what about 1/2 to 2/3 the size So now you only have neogh room on the film to get the area arround the door, and part of the porch. The image is still the smae size.

Now if you wanted to as you went to the samller film you could have picked lenes with shorter lenths, which would have made smaller images... That would have made the picture you evenetualy see on the screen the same size.

Another way, is if I was used to using a 50mm on my 16mm Filmo, I would need to grab a 100 MM or so to get the same shot if someone asked me to use their 35mm Eyemo.

NOW here we have the myth. The 50mm lens is normal on the 35mm SLR, but it is a telephoto on the 16mm, even though it has no idea where or if you are forming an image with it. BUT the size you need to go a goven shot does depend on the size of the film.

Hopefully that will straigten up the confusion for all time.
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#4 Matthew Buick

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 06:52 AM

Ultra Primes are Super 35mm lenses that are the result of years of collaboration betwwen Carl Zeiss and ARRI. They are the first lenses to completely unite all the main characteristics such as contrast, colour saturation, colour uniformity and compactness.

:D I've been reading :D
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 11:28 AM

"Super-35" isn't really a lens type, it just means that all modern 35mm lenses have been designed to cover the wider Super-35, aka Full Aperture, camera gate. And if it covers Super-35, it definitely covers Super-16.

However, both Zeiss and Cooke have made some new lenses in their series in really short focal lengths just for Super-16 that won't cover 35mm.

Panavision Primos (Leitz) were one of the first modern lens series to be matched for color and contrast, followed by Cooke S4's and then Zeiss Ultra Primes.

The newest series is the Zeiss Master Primes, which are T/1.4 instead of T/2.0 lenses, and incredibly sharp, flare-free, sharp wide-open, and low-distortion. They are, however, also incredibly expensive to rent or buy. Unless you need to open-up to T/1.4, most people are going to stick to the Zeiss Ultra Primes (which are only a few years old anyway).
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#6 Max Jacoby

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 04:00 PM

The newest series is the Zeiss Master Primes, which are T/1.4 instead of T/2.0 lenses, and incredibly sharp, flare-free, sharp wide-open, and low-distortion. They are, however, also incredibly expensive to rent or buy.

Interestingly enough in the 2006 Panavision Australia catalogue, the spherical Close-Focus Primo lenses carry a higher rental price than the Master Primes. I have a feeling that it is a question of pride for Panavision to have their own lenses be the most expensive ones and is not motivated by economic considerations.

One of the reasons the Master Primes are so expensive is that there are not yet a huge number of sets available, so they still come at a premium. Once all the needed sets have been manufactured and the bottleneck disappears, the prices go down. For a commercial I shot earlier in the year we got a very good deal on Master Primes from Arri Rental, because the lenses were not rented out on a shoot that would pay the full price.
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#7 Chris Keth

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 04:38 PM

Once all the needed sets have been manufactured and the bottleneck disappears, the prices go down.



A little note on that. An arri rep I talked to in early June said there were about 35 sets on order and it would take the better part of the year to fill all of those.
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#8 Matthew Buick

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 06:11 PM

"Super-35" isn't really a lens type


Oh, I know that, I just mean lenses designed with Super 35 in mind.

Edited by Matthew Buick, 06 August 2006 - 06:12 PM.

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