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the "cine-look"


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#1 24P Jon

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 10:12 AM

yes, i have been working for a marketing group here in town and they have a panasonic dvx100a and want to shoot 24P. no one seemed to know exactly how to use it and how to really use the 24P feature to the fullest. Is there like a good basic setting for beginners to get that cine-look, or is there a sample setting someone could list so I could get a good starting point and play with it from there?...... any information would be much appreciated. :ph34r:

Edited by 24P Jon, 09 August 2006 - 10:14 AM.

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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 11:08 AM

yes, i have been working for a marketing group here in town and they have a panasonic dvx100a and want to shoot 24P. no one seemed to know exactly how to use it and how to really use the 24P feature to the fullest. Is there like a good basic setting for beginners to get that cine-look, or is there a sample setting someone could list so I could get a good starting point and play with it from there?...... any information would be much appreciated. :ph34r:


I'm not sure what you mean by "the fullest". The camera always records 60i (60 fields per second interlaced-scan), so your choices with 24P are either to capture 24P with normal 3:2 pulldown for recording to 60i, or 24P Advanced, which is a simplified pulldown (I think just every fifth frame is repeated). The point of 24P Advanced is that it is easier to remove the pulldown in editing software like FCP in order to cut true 24-frames, not edit in 60i.

But if your project is meant just for 60i (NTSC) display, you could just shoot normal 24P and edit in 60i.

The advantage of cutting in a true 24-frame environment is that your final 24P/480 master has no pulldown, so you can out 24P/480 on a DVD, or any progressive-scan environments like the internet or digital projection, and not deal with an interlaced-scan recording. You can also show interlaced-scan material that way, but it's not as clean and sharp. Then you can also add back a 3:2 pulldown to make a separate 60i/480 master for NTSC videotape, for example.

24P only addresses ONE of many aspects of a "film look", the way motion is reproduced (which is somewhat strobier than with classic 60i video capture.)

There are also issues in terms of Gamma, Color Matrix, shutter speed, and beyond that, general issues like production values (lighting, composition, depth of field, etc.)

There is some info here you can try out:
http://www.dvfilm.co...100settings.htm

I'd just set-up the camera the way you like the images though.
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#3 G McMahon

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 11:21 AM

Can someone direct to info on this "pull down" thing I keep reading about. Is it only a NTSC thing?

G. McMahon
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 11:33 AM

Can someone direct to info on this "pull down" thing I keep reading about. Is it only a NTSC thing?

G. McMahon


Yes, more or less. NTSC displays are 60i, 60 fields per second, interlaced-scan, two fields making up one frame of video. Since film is 24 fps (usually), if you simply split that up into fields, you'd get 48 fields.

So you have to make-up the difference to get 48 fields to become 60 fields and discretely add 12 more fields in a pattern that keeps it from looking too obvious, hence the 3:2 pulldown pattern.

And in there, you also have to deal with the fact that NTSC is not really 60i, but 59.94i, so 24 fps film has to be transferred at 23.976 fps (and the 24P function in the DVX100 is actually 23.976 fps).

24P Advanced in the DVX100 isn't worried about the pulldown looking obvious or clunky because it's meant to be removed when inputting into an editing program set to remove it. So instead of a 3:2 pulldown, they just repeat every fifth frame I believe, which is easier to extract.

http://en.wikipedia....2:3_pulldown.29
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#5 24P Jon

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 12:17 PM

Yes, more or less. NTSC displays are 60i, 60 fields per second, interlaced-scan, two fields making up one frame of video. Since film is 24 fps (usually), if you simply split that up into fields, you'd get 48 fields.

So you have to make-up the difference to get 48 fields to become 60 fields and discretely add 12 more fields in a pattern that keeps it from looking too obvious, hence the 3:2 pulldown pattern.

And in there, you also have to deal with the fact that NTSC is not really 60i, but 59.94i, so 24 fps film has to be transferred at 23.976 fps (and the 24P function in the DVX100 is actually 23.976 fps).

24P Advanced in the DVX100 isn't worried about the pulldown looking obvious or clunky because it's meant to be removed when inputting into an editing program set to remove it. So instead of a 3:2 pulldown, they just repeat every fifth frame I believe, which is easier to extract.

http://en.wikipedia....2:3_pulldown.29


ah, gotcha. preciate the info. to explain myself and little bit; "by fullest" i mean-- some very top end looks can be captured on the 24p that look almost like film. do you have to go in and tweak like the white balance, the gamma or anything like that or is it just about shooting 24P advance and lighting it a certain way?
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 12:36 PM

ah, gotcha. preciate the info. to explain myself and little bit; "by fullest" i mean-- some very top end looks can be captured on the 24p that look almost like film. do you have to go in and tweak like the white balance, the gamma or anything like that or is it just about shooting 24P advance and lighting it a certain way?


You're better off thinking about tweaking the camera to look good to your eyes. Yes, you can use Cine-Like Color, which tends to boost the red chroma, but what if your particular project wants softer reds? Yes, you can try the Cine-Like Gamma, which gives a somewhat flatter look (however, with no knee compression) but what if your particular project needs to look contrasty?

It's not rocket science -- hook up the camera to a nice monitor and play with the settings. It's all pretty subtle for the most part. You're going to find that how you light, frame, etc. the shot will make a bigger difference in how professional the image looks. As a default, you can start out by using the Cine-Like features in the menu.

In terms of 24P versus 24P Advanced, you just have to know how to remove the pulldown in post.

It sometimes helps to use the longer end of the lens and use ND filters (internally or externally) to be able to open up the iris for a less deep-focus look. Just make sure that your iris & gain are on manual so that gain doesn't automatically kick-in when you reach the wide-open iris position.

Some people like using a light diffusion filter, like a 1/4 Black ProMist.
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#7 David W Scott

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 01:43 PM

ah, gotcha. preciate the info. to explain myself and little bit; "by fullest" i mean-- some very top end looks can be captured on the 24p that look almost like film. do you have to go in and tweak like the white balance, the gamma or anything like that or is it just about shooting 24P advance and lighting it a certain way?


David is right -- "top end looks" are created by top end crews with the lighting, camera support and art department to match.

The DVX100 creates a nice film look, but if you've never shot film, it can be hard to identify what that means to you.

I found that, out of the box, the DVX100 looked like a good telecine transfer of 16mm reversal film (like Kodak 7250). If what you are shooting is unlit, it would look the same (poor) in 16mm and on the DVX100. If lit professionally, both look pleasing -- but you would never mistake the DVX100 or 7250 for a nice 35mm negative stock.

I doubt you will bother removing the 3:2 pulldown in editing, so just shoot 24P. Don't use 24PA, because if you don't remove the pulldown, the motion is noticeably jerky.

So, here's my recommended camera setting to get a good DVX100 filmlook without post-processing:

- 24P (not 24PA)
- THICK (not THIN)
- CINEGAMMA
- DETAIL at +1 or +2

If you were actually going to remove the pulldown and go to a film-out, then I would recommend
-24PA
- THIN
- CINEGAMMA
- DETAIL at 0

Use the A/B white balance presets to set two white balances -- one for indoor light, one for daylight. Limit yourself to these two choices. It will give your colours a consistency similar to using filmstocks (a tungsten and a daylight stock).

Edited by David W Scott, 09 August 2006 - 01:45 PM.

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#8 24P Jon

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 02:38 PM

David is right -- "top end looks" are created by top end crews with the lighting, camera support and art department to match.

The DVX100 creates a nice film look, but if you've never shot film, it can be hard to identify what that means to you.

I found that, out of the box, the DVX100 looked like a good telecine transfer of 16mm reversal film (like Kodak 7250). If what you are shooting is unlit, it would look the same (poor) in 16mm and on the DVX100. If lit professionally, both look pleasing -- but you would never mistake the DVX100 or 7250 for a nice 35mm negative stock.

I doubt you will bother removing the 3:2 pulldown in editing, so just shoot 24P. Don't use 24PA, because if you don't remove the pulldown, the motion is noticeably jerky.

So, here's my recommended camera setting to get a good DVX100 filmlook without post-processing:

- 24P (not 24PA)
- THICK (not THIN)
- CINEGAMMA
- DETAIL at +1 or +2

If you were actually going to remove the pulldown and go to a film-out, then I would recommend
-24PA
- THIN
- CINEGAMMA
- DETAIL at 0

Use the A/B white balance presets to set two white balances -- one for indoor light, one for daylight. Limit yourself to these two choices. It will give your colours a consistency similar to using filmstocks (a tungsten and a daylight stock).



thank you guys very much. this makes things much more clear for me as to what i need to be focusing my attention on to achieve the end goal. great info.
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 08:30 PM

24P Advanced in the DVX100 isn't worried about the pulldown looking obvious or clunky because it's meant to be removed when inputting into an editing program set to remove it. So instead of a 3:2 pulldown, they just repeat every fifth frame I believe, which is easier to extract.


I realized that I didn't describe that accurately. The Advanced pulldown is designed in a way that allows you to just drop every third video frame as part of the conversion from 60i back to 24 frames, from reading this article:

http://www.adamwilt....p/#24pRecording
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#10 edin burgan

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:51 AM

Hi there
I´ve ben following these posts with interest and will take a few of the tips here with me on shoots from now on, Tx.
I have found details of 24/25 P at http://www.kenstone....P_nattress.html which I have not tried yet but they look detailed and simple enough. It may help your question and work.
Best wishes
Ian
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#11 Michael O'Donnell

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 08:51 PM

I´ve ben following these posts with interest and will take a few of the tips here with me on shoots from now on, Tx.
I have found details of 24/25 P at http://www.kenstone....P_nattress.html which I have not tried yet but they look detailed and simple enough. It may help your question and work.


Yes, the Ken Stone site is very good. Here are three others that may be useful too:
http://dvfilm.com/ma...100settings.htm
http://www.adamwilt..../#When_to_shoot
http://www.dvxuser.com/ has many articles specific to the DVX100

Best of luck to you,

Michael
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#12 Mariano Nante

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 10:21 AM

So, I am a bit puzzled with the 24p - 24p Advance - 25p issue.
I will be shooting a short film on DVX-100, and I will be editing it on Adobe Premiere. Now, I understand that shooting 24p Advance is the way to go if one wishes to reach the "elusive film-look". But I have also learned that, if shooting in this mode, one should alter the footage in post (in some way I don't completely understand) in order to correct it.
FCP 4 does it automatically, if I am not mistaken. But what about Adobe Premiere Pro? And After Effects? Has anybody done it with these tools?


Thanks for your replies,
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 10:44 AM

Either your DVX100 is NTSC and does 24P, 24P advanced, 30P, and 60i -- or it is the PAL model that does 25P and 50i.

The only difference between 24P and 24P advanced is that both use a pulldown to convert the same 24P capture into 480/60i for recording to tape, but the pulldown for 24P advanced is a simpler design that makes it easier for the editing software to REMOVE the pulldown so you can edit true 24P frames, not 60i footage with a pulldown.

You could remove the standard 3:2 pulldown used by regular 24P mode, but the results aren't as clean, sharp, or as fast to do, etc. Most people would use regular 24P when you were going to edit the footage as 60i without concern about throwing off the cadence of the pulldown because it would only ever be displayed on 60i NTSC monitors. So they'd have the 24P "film look" but otherwise treat it as 60i footage, just as if they had transferred 24 fps film to 60i video and edited it as 60i.

With 24P advanced, you are only supposed to use that mode when you plan on removing the pulldown so you can cut in a 24-frame environment. Then you'd end up with a 480/24P master from which you can either release on DVD (since DVD players can handle either 480/24P or 480/60i -- they just add the pulldown back in when going to a 60i display device), and you can add standard 3:2 pulldown back in to create a separate 480/60i master for dubbing to NTSC tape formats. And a 480/24P master would be better for a transfer to 24 fps film, or a conversion to 50i PAL than using a 480/60i version that had normal pulldown but was cut in 60i without regards to maintaining the cadence of the pulldown.

But in terms of the "film look", that comes from capturing in 24P, whether or not you use standard 3:2 pulldown or advanced pulldown (24P advanced setting) to record to 480/60i.


Read this:

http://www.adamwilt....p/#24pRecording
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#14 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 03:27 PM

To add a further bit of film mojo, some people have suggested using a low contrast filter to smooth out the detail. Tiffen makes one of these filters and you can see an example of what it does here:

http://www.tiffen.co...ast_filters.htm

Edited by M.W.Phillips, 26 August 2006 - 03:28 PM.

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#15 AshG

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 01:57 AM

To add a further bit of film mojo, some people have suggested using a low contrast filter to smooth out the detail. Tiffen makes one of these filters and you can see an example of what it does here:

http://www.tiffen.co...ast_filters.htm



I do not recommend these on the DVX in 16:9 mode, it will soften further an already soft image. I use a pro mist on the XL2 sometimes and often on a Varicam but the DVX, IMHO, cannot handle it as well.



ash =o)
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#16 andybiz_2005

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 06:48 AM

From what I know, the DVX has 2 modes for recording progressive (F5 for 24p & F6 for 24pAdvanced). The difference between F5 mode is that images are recorded THICK by default & in F6, images are recorded THIN by default. Therefore, if your intended audience will view your DVD on a normal progressive TV, then choose F5. But if you want to show your finnished work on film, on a widescreen, then F6 would be preferred.
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