Jump to content


Photo

Super16 Questions


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 Matt Workman

Matt Workman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • NYC

Posted 11 August 2006 - 08:39 PM

I have only shot a short on film so far (s16) but I am possibly shooting a much larger project. I mainly have been shooting DV and HD.

I am familiar with metering film, some film stocks, and most of the mechanics shooting. But because the film shoots I have been on have been rather basic I am still unclear about some practices.

Do you shoot a grey card or color chart at the head of every new scene? This is mainly for the lab to color time correctly right?

What is the standard practive for filming with two film camera's. Do you have a slate for each camera?

In general how many stops overexposed/underexposed can film handle?

I am going to shoot some tests soon but I was hoping to get some opinions here.

Thanks.
  • 0

#2 Tshaka

Tshaka
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Grip
  • New York

Posted 11 August 2006 - 08:45 PM

I have only shot a short on film so far (s16) but I am possibly shooting a much larger project. I mainly have been shooting DV and HD.

I am familiar with metering film, some film stocks, and most of the mechanics shooting. But because the film shoots I have been on have been rather basic I am still unclear about some practices.

Do you shoot a grey card or color chart at the head of every new scene? This is mainly for the lab to color time correctly right?

What is the standard practive for filming with two film camera's. Do you have a slate for each camera?

In general how many stops overexposed/underexposed can film handle?

I am going to shoot some tests soon but I was hoping to get some opinions here.

Thanks.



I'm not sure you're ready to photograph this feature in Kenya Matt.

You're in over your head.

It wouldn't be fair to the director or the producers and investors.

Tshaka
  • 0

#3 Matt Workman

Matt Workman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • NYC

Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:01 PM

Tshaka, I am not signed on to this project, just yet. But we will see.

I have a s16 short coming up too and I'm hoping to shoot more s16 in the next few months. I'm hoping with a good AC I can worry about the frame, movement, and lighting. I have only shot with an Aaton and it was with a small crew, so I did a lot of the AC work.

Edited by mattworkman, 11 August 2006 - 09:06 PM.

  • 0

#4 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 August 2006 - 10:53 PM

Do you shoot a grey card or color chart at the head of every new scene? This is mainly for the lab to color time correctly right?


It tells the timer or colorist doing dailies what "normal" is rather than try and interpret a scene -- a boring, flat-lit gray card is hard to misinterpret. Generally the gray card would be under what you establish as neutral or white light -- especially if you are shooting under greenish fluorescents and want them to correct out the green -- but sometimes you fool the timer / colorist by shooting the gray scale under a gelled light (or with a camera filter) that you pull for the scene to get the opposite color bias. For example, shooting a gray scale under a 1/4 CTB-gelled light so that once they add more orange to time the gray scale to neutral, the following scene will look warm in comparison.

Generally as long as that color balance for the gray scale works for a number of scenes, you only need to shoot a new one if you change stocks or want a new balance. Until the next day's shooting when you do a new gray scale.

It's not really necessary if the video transfer will be supervised though.

What is the standard practive for filming with two film camera's. Do you have a slate for each camera?


Yes, separately unless both cameras can see the same slate. All shots in a movie should generally be slated (whether or not you clap the slate for sync-sound) for the editor and lab to keep track of them. It's helpful when you get that call on set that the lab screwed up some shot and they can tell you where the screw-up is (B-Cam, Scene 201, Take 3, for example -- and you can dig up further info on the camera report as to which mag was used if the problem is a scratch.) Paperwork is boring but necessary.

In general how many stops overexposed/underexposed can film handle?


If you're talking about latitude for exposure error, depends on what you consider an "acceptable" shot once it is corrected for the mistake. One person who underexposed accidentally by three stops and printed it back up to normal may just be grateful to get an image, while another person would consider the shot too ugly to be usable.

If you mean, how many stops underexposed until things go black or overexposed until they burn out to white, it also depends on if you are talking about a transfer off of the negative or a print off of the negative. And the reflectance of the subject matters too.
  • 0

#5 Matt Workman

Matt Workman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • NYC

Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:51 PM

David That straightened some things out for me.

I suppose with the "stops" question I was referring to how many until white blows out and blacks lose all detail. I haven't been using a light meter for most of my shoots because they have been digital. I just use the monitor to measure the levels.

I have shot with the new Kodak 200T and I have a pretty good feel for that stock, but I haven't been shooting that critical of material yet.

With the grey card, the shoots I've been on they didn't use them but an AC I worked with had a whole set of cards and color charts in his kit. I was just wondering.

Tshaka: I understand where you might be coming from with your comment, but you don't know the size of the production, who is involved, or when its happening. I am confident that with some testing and the right crew I would be just fine.

Thank you for you info in the Kenya thread though, I have that book, I wouldn't have thought to look there.
  • 0

#6 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 12 August 2006 - 12:49 AM

You should just do a basic over and under test, and a contrast ratio test for the stock.

Generally, my rule is that if the shadows are three stops under, there will generally be some detail there, but if they are four stops, it's borderline. But it really depends on the reflectance of the subject.

Often to burn a caucasian face out to white, it has to be nearly five stops overexposed.

If this is for video transfer, you have some flexibility in increasing contrast to allow things to go to black or white faster.
  • 0

#7 Matt Workman

Matt Workman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • NYC

Posted 12 August 2006 - 09:46 PM

I read this today on the Arri website.

Can you describe how you shot the campfire scene? What stop did you shoot at?

The only light source came from the fire itself. I wanted the light to fall off the further away you were from the fire, I shot the scene at T2.8. The fire itself was reading about 22 reflective. The stock was Kodak 7218, which allows to the highlights to be five stops over without losing too much detail...It?s pretty amazing.

http://www.arri.com/...s/0606/sr3.html
  • 0

#8 Thom Stitt

Thom Stitt
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Other
  • Vancouver

Posted 13 August 2006 - 12:45 AM

7218 is a tank on Super 16, I love it. The range is good and it's incredibly sharp for such a fast stock.

I know you're planning some tests, but I just want to emphasize how very important they are. You need to pay a lot of attention to what you're doing on the day, make detailed slates and notes, and know what you did for each take when you see the results. Really find your way around the stock, know your way around it really well after the testing. Push the stock to both limits so you know what you're dealing with.

When I shot super 16 I ruined a lot of the outdoor tests by overexposing too much. I think I just missed an ND calculation looking back, but I can't honestly be sure. It was something stupid - I blew the outdoor test, and it was a wake up call. It pays off to be obsessively precise with exposure calculations on super 16. The images you get on perfectly exposed (and obviously well-lit) s16 are stunning.

Though 18 is a tough stock to screw up, it's still a lot less forgiving than 35. My rule of thumb is to not trust anything important being 3 stops over or under. Because the grain structure becomes easily more noticeable in 16, I also tend to overexpose by half a stop depending on conditions.
Your actual range is probably at least 10 stops. But don't TRUST anything around zones 8 and 9, and especially zones 1 and 2. The last, last thing you want is to have to print up.

Good luck with the shoot, I say dive in. Don't listen to anyone dissuading you from tackling it. Just do your homework like crazy, take your tests seriously, and then have a blast shooting the damn thing.
  • 0


Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Opal

Technodolly

The Slider

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

Metropolis Post

CineLab

Abel Cine

CineTape

Aerial Filmworks

FJS International, LLC

Wooden Camera

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Wooden Camera

CineLab

Technodolly

Metropolis Post

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

Opal

Paralinx LLC

CineTape

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Glidecam

FJS International, LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Abel Cine

The Slider