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"Out of phase"


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#1 Mikael Lemercier

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:21 AM

Hi,
does someone get some example of shoot with out of phase during the take?
or any tips about where i can see some example (movies, commercial, website...)
regards.
Mikael
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:32 AM

Hi,
does someone get some example of shoot with out of phase during the take?
or any tips about where i can see some example (movies, commercial, website...)
regards.
Mikael


What's out of phase? The shutter? A TV set? An HMI light?
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#3 Mikael Lemercier

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:56 AM

hi David,
out of phase, i mean miss timing between shutter and mouvment, using on arri 435 or Panavision XL.
i'm curious to see the effects during the shoot. do you have already use it?
regards
Mikael
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#4 Emmett John

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:56 AM

I think shooting with the cameras shutter out of phase creates a vertical streaking effect, caused by highlights burning a line up the negative as the film is pulled down whilst still being exposed. Cant be dont with all cameras but im pretty sure any 435 is capable of it. Correct me if I'm wrong?

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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:00 PM

I "used it" by accident on my first feature back in 1992, thanks to the crappy UltraCam camera I was using...

The most famous examples are: the opening battle of "Saving Private Ryan", the appearance of the sniper near the end of "Full Metal Jacket", and there's a fist fight in the auto factory in "Minority Report" that used it briefly as I recall.

How bad the streaking is depends on how much out of sync you are.
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:46 PM

I "used it" by accident on my first feature back in 1992, thanks to the crappy UltraCam camera I was using...
.


David,

It's just 2 allen screws that holds the shutter timing, I am suprised the AC did not notice at the check out.

Stephen
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:57 PM

David,

It's just 2 allen screws that holds the shutter timing, I am suprised the AC did not notice at the check out.

Stephen


It was the third UltraCam dropped onto us in the San Bernardino desert where we were shooting. The first one worked fine, and then Leonetti said that wanted it back because it needed to go out on a TV series and it was the only one convertable to 3-perf. So they gave us another UltraCam on location and it blew fuses every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on location and that one shaved film off in the gate on every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on a Friday and it seemed to work fine until dailies on Monday showed us the shutter timing error. At which point Leonetti blamed the film stock and the lab for the problem.

None of us, the lab person, me, the film stock rep, or the Leonetti rep recognized what the error was -- I had never seen the effect before. It was the camera assistant who guessed at the problem and found the error after-the-fact.

So I can tell you that the first UltraCam worked fine and was prepped thoroughly by the AC's, but after that, it was Leonetti driving out to the desert in the middle of our shoot and swapping the cameras between takes - all the while assuring us it was prepped back at the shop.

After that fiasco, Panavision generously donated a Panaflex for free for us to finish the last two weeks of the show. We were making a 35mm movie on a budget of $40,000 cash basically.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:20 PM

It was the third UltraCam dropped onto us in the San Bernardino desert where we were shooting. The first one worked fine, and then Leonetti said that wanted it back because it needed to go out on a TV series and it was the only one convertable to 3-perf. So they gave us another UltraCam on location and it blew fuses every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on location and that one shaved film off in the gate on every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on a Friday and it seemed to work fine until dailies on Monday showed us the shutter timing error. At which point Leonetti blamed the film stock and the lab for the problem.

None of us, the lab person, me, the film stock rep, or the Leonetti rep recognized what the error was -- I had never seen the effect before. It was the camera assistant who guessed at the problem and found the error after-the-fact.

So I can tell you that the first UltraCam worked fine and was prepped thoroughly by the AC's, but after that, it was Leonetti driving out to the desert in the middle of our shoot and swapping the cameras between takes - all the while assuring us it was prepped back at the shop.

After that fiasco, Panavision generously donated a Panaflex for free for us to finish the last two weeks of the show. We were making a 35mm movie on a budget of $40,000 cash basically.


David,

I can see why they sold their fleet off!

Stephen
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#9 Mitch Gross

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 04:10 PM

The later 435 cameras can be set to mistime the shutter electronically. The 435extreme can do just about everything but make expresso.
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#10 Mikael Lemercier

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 04:00 AM

I think shooting with the cameras shutter out of phase creates a vertical streaking effect, caused by highlights burning a line up the negative as the film is pulled down whilst still being exposed. Cant be dont with all cameras but im pretty sure any 435 is capable of it. Correct me if I'm wrong?


hi Emmett
that's it! have you got some others examples of pictures?

The most famous examples are: the opening battle of "Saving Private Ryan", the appearance of the sniper near the end of "Full Metal Jacket", and there's a fist fight in the auto factory in "Minority Report" that used it briefly as I recall.

Hi David,
thank you for the examples.

The later 435 cameras can be set to mistime the shutter electronically. The 435extreme can do just about everything but make expresso.


hi Mitch,
you 're right about 435, and with the 435es (without mistiming eprom) you can just running one motor of your choice( shutter or mouvment).
regards
Mikael.

Edited by mikael lemercier, 18 August 2006 - 04:01 AM.

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#11 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:05 AM

I've done tests recently for a commercial I did, and I will upload the test footage on my website soon. There you can see the effects of streaking at all angles of mistiming, from 0 degrees to 180 degrees.

You can see the commercial here:

http://www.adamfrisc...indexmovie.html

The streaking effect is at the end of it and it was varied between 120/130 degrees to about 170 degrees at the most.
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#12 Ram Shani

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:15 AM

just want to say great work adam love the commercial
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#13 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 04:30 PM

It was the third UltraCam

Sounds like Ultra"Crap" to me. I bet the boys at Panavision are patting themselves on the back for helping you out way back when. I know you're pretty loyal to them, and I can see why.

You can see the commercial here:

http://www.adamfrisc...indexmovie.html

Nice work Adam! I really dig it. Did you shoot upside down or did they just do it in post? I assume when the camera turns right side up that it was a post move.
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#14 Daniel Stigler

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 11:33 PM

you 're right about 435, and with the 435es (without mistiming eprom) you can just running one motor of your choice( shutter or mouvment).



For the Arricams and the 435Xtreme there's a little box called Timing Shift Box that plugs to the camera and lets you turn the timing out of phase.
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#15 Mikael Lemercier

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 02:08 PM

I've done tests recently for a commercial I did, and I will upload the test footage on my website soon. There you can see the effects of streaking at all angles of mistiming, from 0 degrees to 180 degrees.

Hi Adam,
I like your commercial. I'm curious about your tests, wich camera did you used for it?
regards.
Mikael.
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#16 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 02:26 PM

It was the third UltraCam dropped onto us in the San Bernardino desert where we were shooting. The first one worked fine, and then Leonetti said that wanted it back because it needed to go out on a TV series and it was the only one convertable to 3-perf. So they gave us another UltraCam on location and it blew fuses every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on location and that one shaved film off in the gate on every take. So they brought us another UltraCam on a Friday and it seemed to work fine until dailies on Monday showed us the shutter timing error. At which point Leonetti blamed the film stock and the lab for the problem.

None of us, the lab person, me, the film stock rep, or the Leonetti rep recognized what the error was -- I had never seen the effect before. It was the camera assistant who guessed at the problem and found the error after-the-fact.

So I can tell you that the first UltraCam worked fine and was prepped thoroughly by the AC's, but after that, it was Leonetti driving out to the desert in the middle of our shoot and swapping the cameras between takes - all the while assuring us it was prepped back at the shop.

After that fiasco, Panavision generously donated a Panaflex for free for us to finish the last two weeks of the show. We were making a 35mm movie on a budget of $40,000 cash basically.


You've got a great memory! :) All I recall is the blue paint chipping off the mags. Ultracrap is what we were calling it.
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#17 Stephen Williams

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 02:54 PM

You've got a great memory! :) All I recall is the blue paint chipping off the mags. Ultracrap is what we were calling it.


Hi,

I think the paint almost falls off the magnesium body + mags!

Stephen
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#18 timHealy

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 03:29 PM

A friend worked on a series of spots for the summer Olympics a few years ago shot by Tony Wahlberg (sp?) also using mistiming intentionally. Sorry, that I don't have any links or examples of them but I thought they looked great at the time. I only saw them when they aired.

Best

Tim
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#19 Mitch Gross

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:09 AM

You've got a great memory! :) All I recall is the blue paint chipping off the mags. Ultracrap is what we were calling it.

I was always partial to the term "UltraJam" since that's what they always did.
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#20 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:46 AM

I was always partial to the term "UltraJam" since that's what they always did.


Hi Mitch,

Never had a jam myself! There is a danger of missing the last roller, then if the power is low leading to low take up tension, the film might just get caught on the main sprocket. I think that could be the issue.

Stephen
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