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#1 grantsmith

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 03:54 PM

Hello,

I'm looking to transfer some footage I have on 16mm to video. It dosn't justify being professionally telcined so I'm wanting to use a 16mm projector I bought recently.

The problem I'm having is that whenever I project at 24fps (and more so at 18) I have a slight flicker effect which looks a bit like something by Melies (which could be nice if thats what you want) which I would like to get rid of.

My Maths isnt great but with a 3:2 pulldown I think I should be looking to have a shutter speed of 1/30 (please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not entirely sure about this) to be able to film what my eye sees. This seems fine if I have a NTSC camera where I can select 1/60 or 1/30 but I'm using PAL so have 1/50 or 1/25.

Is there anyway to get rid of this flicker other than having the footage professionally telecined?

thank you
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#2 Hal Smith

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 04:36 PM

Is there anyway to get rid of this flicker other than having the footage professionally telecined?

Your problem is more complicated - your video camera is running at exactly 29.970 frames per second and your projector isn't running at the same speed or even exactly 24 or 18 fps to say nothing of at an exact 3:2 ratio. Unless you've got a pretty expensive projector it uses a non-synchronous motor. The type of projector designed to run at synchronous speeds is usually called an "interlock" projector. That's a projector designed to run double system sound, multiple projectors simultaneously, etc. Also, old TV film chain projectors
actually do run at exactly 23.976 fps and have the 3:2 pulldown built into them. It irks me now that a lot of them went on the scrap heap when tape took over for film at tv stations. Not that I had the foresight to grab one when I could have had one for the hauling off.

I've never heard of this being done, but you might try playing your flickering tape on a LCD monitor while taping it again. Messy but it might get rid of the flicker.

On the subject. All projectors actually show each frame two or three times before pulling the film down to the next frame. That's to reduce apparent flicker. So a projector running at 24 frames per second actually has a "flash" rate of 48 or 72 fields per second. Even at 48 flashes per second my Simplex 35mm projector has a noticeable flicker if you look at the light beam coming out of it.

Having a 35mm projector can be fun, my wife's best friend's 11 year old son was visiting last night and I took him down to the shop and we watched a Roadrunner and Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes cartoon with him on the silver screen. I then I gave him a trailer for "V for Vendetta" to take to school for show and tell. Totally impressed the young man! :)
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#3 John Mastrogiacomo

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 05:07 PM

Is there anyway to get rid of this flicker other than having the footage professionally telecined?



You will need clear scan on your video camera. I have an old Bell and Howell model 2592 I use for checking
my 16mm reversal film.

When I want the transfer it to video, I pull out my Sony D35 camera and set the clear scan to 75.4 and there is NO flicker.

I hope this helps you.

:)
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#4 Hal Smith

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 06:49 PM

When I want the transfer it to video, I pull out my Sony D35 camera and set the clear scan to 75.4 and there is NO flicker.

That's interesting, do you have any idea what the "clear scan" mode on a D35 does? I've haven't seen anything like that on the Sony consumer/prosumer camera's menus I'm familiar with but there might be some similar software hidden inside them somewhere.
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#5 John Mastrogiacomo

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 07:12 PM

That's interesting, do you have any idea what the "clear scan" mode on a D35 does? I've haven't seen anything like that on the Sony consumer/prosumer camera's menus I'm familiar with but there might be some similar software hidden inside them somewhere.


The Sony Clear Scan function enables the user to shoot computer displays without the appearance of horizontal bands and flickering. It does this by precisely selecting a shutter speed which matches the scanning frequency of the computer display. Shutter speeds range from 60.4Hz to 200.3Hz and are selectable in 183 steps within this range.

Basically, you want to look for something to adjust the shutter with.

The D35 camera is a step up from the consumer/prosumer cameras.

:)
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#6 Hal Smith

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 09:18 PM

Basically, you want to look for something to adjust the shutter with.
The D35 camera is a step up from the comsumer/prosumer cameras.

Thank you for the info.

With my short stubby legs I'd hate to try and make that jump in "a step". :D

No, I don't think I'll find a shutter adjustment with micro steps in a consumer/prosumer box. The D35 is obviously very much a pro piece of gear - I did a little Googling on it.
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#7 Valeriu Campan

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:57 PM

Have a look at these two ready made options:
http://www.moviestuf...m_telecine.html
or
http://www.jkcamera....tal_printer.htm
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#8 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 05:55 AM

Have a look at these two ready made options:
http://www.moviestuf...m_telecine.html
or
http://www.jkcamera....tal_printer.htm


About idea a use of digital photo camera for transer image from film to digital, not good.
You need check rupture life of photo camera and You can calculate, how many photo cameras you will need for transfer one 10 minutes cine film.
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#9 Gianni Raineri

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 03:01 PM

My PAL Sony DCR TRV 120E camcorder with several 8mm projectors... not done 16mm yet. When the camera is set to slow shutter mode, flicker and strobing goes away... i think it's slower than 1/25th of a second smooths out the 25 fps PAL.

Not frame accurate, but close enough to view on TV and maybe rough cutting with Imovie. I remember VHS assemble editing time code burned VHS's, then giving the tape to the online editors.


Gianni


Hello, .....

......I'm using PAL so have 1/50 or 1/25.

Is there anyway to get rid of this flicker other than having the footage professionally telecined?

thank you


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#10 David Leugers

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 11:40 PM

A 16mm projector with a 5-bladed shutter and a sync motor works great. The classic telecine. Easy to convert
the B+H JAN using parts from International Cine Equipment Co in Miami. You'll need a good biplexer (basically a lens to project onto which you focus the camera onto for an aerial image). You can buy one from Moviestuff.
If you are interested, I can build you a JAN telecine at a decent price.
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#11 Michael Collier

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 12:55 AM

Check the post in S8mm forum 'am I crazy' we are discussing a way to build a home telecine machine with a DSLR for optimum quality (possibly as good as some professional telecine machines) If you are interested I will build you one of those (after I test the idea on Matthews Projector, if he lets me)
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