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Super 8 Dailies and Rank Cintel


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#1 Timothy David Orme

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 09:08 PM

I'm shooting my next film (about 50 rolls) on Vision-2 200T Color Negatives (Kodak). Does anybody know of anywhere that does dailies? I haven't had much luck.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any super8ers out there that have a particular lab they like to use. I'm looking to go from film to an uncompressed image on a hard drive. Any ideas?

Thanks a million.
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#2 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 09:18 PM

I don't do dailies with Super 8. For one because they wouldnt be dailies for me, they would be weeklies...:-D

As far as uncompressed, there are places that will do them. I know there is a place in New York that transfers to 10-bit uncompressed, and there was actually a thread in the Super 8 achives on here that discussed whether it was worthwhile or not. The general consensus from the die-hard Super8 filmmakers on this site seemed to suggest that it isn't really worth the effort, money, and hard drive space to deal with 10-bit uncompressed for Super 8. MiniDV will give good results and DigiBETA will give incredible results. I really doubt that 4:4:4 is going to give any noticeable difference over 4:2:2 of DigiBETA, when you are talking about Super 8. Not to mention, editing 10-bit uncompressed opens up a whole new amount of editing tools to deal with that amount of data. I am personally content with MiniDV trasnfer from RANK, if they are done well.
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#3 Timothy David Orme

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 09:26 PM

I don't do dailies with Super 8. For one because they wouldnt be dailies for me, they would be weeklies...:-D

As far as uncompressed, there are places that will do them. I know there is a place in New York that transfers to 10-bit uncompressed, and there was actually a thread in the Super 8 achives on here that discussed whether it was worthwhile or not. The general consensus from the die-hard Super8 filmmakers on this site seemed to suggest that it isn't really worth the effort, money, and hard drive space to deal with 10-bit uncompressed for Super 8. MiniDV will give good results and DigiBETA will give incredible results. I really doubt that 4:4:4 is going to give any noticeable difference over 4:2:2 of DigiBETA, when you are talking about Super 8. Not to mention, editing 10-bit uncompressed opens up a whole new amount of editing tools to deal with that amount of data. I am personally content with MiniDV trasnfer from RANK, if they are done well.


You know, I've been debating whether or not to go uncompressed or not, and your post really makes me think about it. Besides the fact that it'll cost me a lot more money, I've only heard that it'll help give me more room for color correction. Well, someone did tell me there's 11X more data uncompressed than on miniDV, and that's a huge difference. Right?
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#4 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 10:25 PM

You know, I've been debating whether or not to go uncompressed or not, and your post really makes me think about it. Besides the fact that it'll cost me a lot more money, I've only heard that it'll help give me more room for color correction. Well, someone did tell me there's 11X more data uncompressed than on miniDV, and that's a huge difference. Right?


Well, it obviously is in terms of data. The question is, does all of that data equal into superior image quality. MiniDV is compressed, but people assume that it means the data is gone. It isnt gone, just squeezed. Just like when you use WinZip, your files are compressed but it doesnt mean that your program is missing anything. If that were the case, you wouldnt be able to run anything after it's been unzipped. I mean, I really can't fully answer your question because, if you are capable of discerning miniscule differences, it may make a difference to you. If what you are asking me is if your average viewer is going to care, then the answer is most likely not. Another thing to consider with this is, are you going to DVD or are you planning to use transfer as DI and do a film out. If you are seeking to seriously blow up to 35mm then maybe uncompressed starts to become worthwhile. For DVD, I wouldnt even bother with it.
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#5 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:44 AM

Well, it obviously is in terms of data. The question is, does all of that data equal into superior image quality. MiniDV is compressed, but people assume that it means the data is gone. It isnt gone, just squeezed. Just like when you use WinZip, your files are compressed but it doesnt mean that your program is missing anything. If that were the case, you wouldnt be able to run anything after it's been unzipped. I mean, I really can't fully answer your question because, if you are capable of discerning miniscule differences, it may make a difference to you. If what you are asking me is if your average viewer is going to care, then the answer is most likely not. Another thing to consider with this is, are you going to DVD or are you planning to use transfer as DI and do a film out. If you are seeking to seriously blow up to 35mm then maybe uncompressed starts to become worthwhile. For DVD, I wouldnt even bother with it.



I think uncompressed becomes intriguing if one were going to HD AND filling the whole screen, which means Super-16 or 35mm. Super-8mm to either Betacam SP or digibetacam allows one to use a kona card and the DVC-PRO 50 codec which is twice the data of mini-dv but several times less data than HD or uncompressed.

Seems like a good quality compromise to me, Betacam sp or Digital Betacam with a Kona Card and DVC-Pro 50 codec, slightly more expensive than mini-dv but probably will maximize the quality of the format. If money is an issue, than mini-dv is a very fine alternative. Grainier footage may become slightly pixelized when using mini-dv, that is what I have heard, I don't know at what stage that may happen at, perhaps the final step, when the compressed signal is recompressed from mini-dv onto DVD.
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#6 Chris Burke

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 10:48 PM

I'm shooting my next film (about 50 rolls) on Vision-2 200T Color Negatives (Kodak). Does anybody know of anywhere that does dailies? I haven't had much luck.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any super8ers out there that have a particular lab they like to use. I'm looking to go from film to an uncompressed image on a hard drive. Any ideas?

Thanks a million.



www.cinelab.com will do telecine to hard drive as 10 bit uncompressed at no extra charge. 50 rolls shot at 24fps and transfered at 24 will yield a file that is 169.4 gig. I think that is not all that big a deal and is well worth it. The benefit comes in on the color grade. I have used this service many times and will continue to do so. they have a deal $43US per role of either 7217 or 7218; includes film, processing and transfer to hard drive as a best light.
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#7 David W Scott

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 09:43 AM

Cinelab are very reasonably priced, the quality is fine. I like that they offer uncompressed to hard drive.

As far as colour correcting in post -- I think that it makes more sense to colour correct during the transfer.

You have the full gamut of colour captured on film, and can tweak to get exactly what you need. You can really push the envelope and still have a usuable image. Once you record that image to video, you are much more limited. Even uncompressed video still has limitations in how far you can push the image around. By that point, you can't dig deeper into the negative to find anything. If it wasn't transferred, it's not going to be there.

I know that colour correcting BEFORE you post the film is counter-intuitive to film guys. When working with film, it makes sense to do the colour timing last, because you are still pulling the image from your original negative. But once you telecine, I think it's too late to really make a difference.

Having a supervised telecine session is very gratifying, because you can have so much control over the look. The drawback to timing your transfers is that there is more material to grade. However... you usually can pick the look for each setup and then let the subsequent takes transfer without any tweaking.

Cost is also an issue. The premium for supervised transfers can be prohibitive (I have paid $500/hr for a good Davinci/Rank session with a good colorist). I don't know what Cinelab would charge for a supervised session -- but it's probably less than that.

For a Super 8 project, let me suggest an alternative to Rank transfers. (I know I'm likely to get flamed for this... but here goes.)

Why not get a supervised transfer at a cheaper place like Justin Lovell's Frame Discreet? Frame Discreet pricelist

Justin is running a modified Sniper setup. I have found his transfers are sharper and have better detail than older Rank transfers. He has real-time colour correction capabilities, and can work with you to get a look. I think that is KEY -- having the negative to work from, and being able to dig into it for colour correction before it hits any tape or hard drives. I also believe Justin was working towards doing uncompressed transfers (don't know if he's ready for that yet.) For $50/hr, you can't go wrong.
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#8 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 01:55 PM

I'm shooting my next film (about 50 rolls) on Vision-2 200T Color Negatives (Kodak). Does anybody know of anywhere that does dailies? I haven't had much luck.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any super8ers out there that have a particular lab they like to use. I'm looking to go from film to an uncompressed image on a hard drive. Any ideas?

Thanks a million.



I just want to point out that digital betacam and betacam sp are still very popular transfer formats for film of any format.

As proof here is a link.

http://www.broadcast...le.jsp?id=60573

Here is the article in case the link ever goes bad.

Shooters Post & Transfer posts spot for Cingular
Cingular taps Shooters Post & Transfer to post and design new campaign
DMN Newswire--2006-8-28--Philadelphia, August 23, 2006? In an effort to recognize the exclusive partnership between Cingular Wireless and the NCAA (National Collegiate Athletic Association), Cingular and its agency, BBDO Atlanta, turned to the award winning post house, Shooters Post & Transfer (www.shootersing.com), to produce a striking spot promoting the excellence of the two organizations.

The ad was specifically designed to run on scoreboards and big screens at all NCAA championship sporting events across the country.

Cingular wanted to pay tribute to NCAA athletes in a variety of sports. The goal was to show athletes exhibiting their strength as a metaphor to the strength of Cingular?s bars -- symbolizing the company?s superior reception.

Click

The spot?s tag line poignantly spells out the theme of the ad: ?Here?s to all NCAA student-athletes, past and present, setting bars and continuously raising them.?

The metaphor is driven home by showing athletes like a baseball player leaping for a fly ball or a basketball player jumping up to dunk the ball. Each athlete is shown springing forward as if they are scaling Cingular?s bars to complete their individual maneuver. The spot features athletes in the following sports: volleyball, track and field, gymnastics, basketball, and baseball, with the actual bars revealing themselves at the end in stepped fashion as a high jumper rises over the bars to clear the final column, leading into the tag line.

?Shooters Post & Transfer worked hard to enhance the maneuvers for each of the athletes,? said Peter Odiorne, director of Phasmatrope Studios. ?In certain cases an athlete?s motion was naturally more horizontal than vertical. We needed a perfect match of vertical and horizontal that created a 45-degree angle upward. What we couldn?t get perfectly in production, Shooters adjusted in post.?

Shooters Post & Transfer Art Director, Kris Magyarits, conceptualized the look and feel of the spot and zeroed in on conveying the beauty and elegance of an athlete?s performance. ?I worked to capture the athletes in moments that were both compelling and cinematic,? said Magyarits. ?My job was also to streamline the design process to cope with the time constraints we were under.?

Susan Warsaw, executive producer, BBDO, Atlanta, said Magyarits and his design team not only met, but exceeded the agency?s expectations. ?Kris did a great job and added some great creative ideas to the project, such as animating the NCAA logo and type. The entire experience was smooth and fast.?

To ensure a successful and efficient film shoot, Shooters Post & Transfer editor, Steve Wheelock, worked on-site with Odiorne during in Orlando, Florida. With his and the graphics department?s help back in Philadelphia, Shooters Post & Transfer produced high-end graphic animatics for the production team. This helped the agency and client get a visual sense of how the athletes interacted with the bars.

?It was so nice to see the boards come to life so perfectly, just like we envisioned,? said Warsaw. ?The tests helped us explain to the client how the process was going to work.?

Phasmatrope Studios shot the athletes on a sound stage in 35mm color film. The film was transferred to digital beta cam and loaded into the Fire. From there, hours were spent rotoscoping each of the athletes to remove them from the studio background. This process was challenging because green screen was not used for the live action. Phasmatrope felt that it could achieve a more stylized lighting effect of the athletes by not using a green screen.

In addition to having the athletes arc over the bars, the producers also wanted to achieve a ?media effect? that showed how television technology had progressed through the ages ?superimposed over the athlete while he or she completed their move. To accomplish the aging transformation Magyarits devised five different treatments for the film to simulate the early days of television to present day.

?Each of the five imaginary bars that the athlete passed over was affected to create a specific television look,? said Odiorne. ?Kris created all kinds of effects, from generating scratched up, archival looking black and white film to Kodachrome. The viewer sees the athlete pass through the different media eras ending up with a full color, modern day HD television look to finish off the transition.?

Due to the short turn around time required by the agency, Shooters Post & Transfer worked around the clock and employed five Fire and After Effects artists to complete the job in just four days. The rotoscoping, graphics and compositing effects were accomplished by Kevin Fanning, Ted Devlin, Tim Bowman and Rob Graham. The graphic design and Art Direction were performed by Kris Magyarits.

?We worked as a cohesive team on this,? said editor, Rob Graham. ?We all played off of each other to get the bulk of the work done and when we put it all together and saw the results?it was magical!?

CREDITS

Agency: BBDO Atlanta
Production Company: Phasmatrope Studios
Post Production (obviously) Shooters Post & Transfer
Account Executive: Diana Caputo
Art Direction/Design: Kris Magyarits
Rotoscoping/Compositing: Kevin Fanning, Ted Devlin, Tim Bowman and Rob Graham
fire* Editor/final edit and conform: Rob Graham


About Shooters Post & Transfer
Shooters Post & Transfer blends talent, technology, and customer service to provide a superior level of quality and creativity. Shooters? client base consists of ad agencies, production companies, filmmakers, television and cable networks, political consultants, PR firms, and corporations. The company is located in Historic Old City Philadelphia. Shooters supports all available high definition (HD) formats. Capabilities include film transfer with data and HD output, HD color correction with Defocus and Toolbox, five fire (HD) suites, CGI and graphic design, flame, five non-linear editorial suites, three digital HD surround sound audio suites, audio recording studio, film, HD and video crews and studio.
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#9 Antonios Papantoniou

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 03:13 AM

I'm shooting my next film (about 50 rolls) on Vision-2 200T Color Negatives (Kodak). Does anybody know of anywhere that does dailies? I haven't had much luck.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any super8ers out there that have a particular lab they like to use. I'm looking to go from film to an uncompressed image on a hard drive. Any ideas?

Thanks a million.



Go to www.pro8mm.com - I have done transfer there to mini-dv & digital beta. Also The Machine Room (UK) gives very interesting results
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#10 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 05:03 AM

Go to www.pro8mm.com - I have done transfer there to mini-dv & digital beta. Also The Machine Room (UK) gives very interesting results



Spectra Film & Video was very receptive to providing "daily reports" for film that was to be shot for a feature on the East Coast. The plan was to fed-ex the film to Spectra, who would process it and transfer it promptly and give a report on how the footage looked.

Yale Labs also can be considered if the footage is not too out there in terms of violence, gore, or sex. As far as I know, none of these three labs is doing uncompressed yet they stay busy with the digital betacam, betacam sp and mini-dv transfers from film that they offer.
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