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How much can I blow up a 35mm image in telecine?


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#1 Morgan Peline

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 12:05 AM

Hi,

I just shot a 'geurrilla' 35mm short on short-ends over 3 long days. Unfortunately we were really pushed for time and I didn't manage to get a (what I think is important) close-up.

Q: How much can I blow up a 35mm image in a telecine transfer to DigiBeta without losing quality on a tv screen?

I was always told it was about 5% - 10% on an image from 16mm. Is this true for 35mm as well?

Also as a matter of interest as well...Q: Is there such software that can take out mag scratches on the neg?

Thanks for the help!
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 12:39 AM

Hi,

I just shot a 'geurrilla' 35mm short on short-ends over 3 long days. Unfortunately we were really pushed for time and I didn't manage to get a (what I think is important) close-up.

Q: How much can I blow up a 35mm image in a telecine transfer to DigiBeta without losing quality on a tv screen?

I was always told it was about 5% - 10% on an image from 16mm. Is this true for 35mm as well?

Also as a matter of interest as well...Q: Is there such software that can take out mag scratches on the neg?

Thanks for the help!


Hi,

You can probably get the close up, assuming you have a medium shot. Depending on the ASA of the film and how critical you are!

Stephen
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#3 Jon Kukla

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 05:24 PM

Any chance of getting a wet-gate transfer just for the scratched scenes?
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#4 Morgan Peline

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:07 PM

Hi,

The shot is a full (long?) shot of a girl sitting cross legged making a heart shaped box.
The stock was the old Vision2 250D/7246. @35mm lens. Can't remember the stop as it was a bit rock n roll on that day as we had 5 mins to shoot before we lost our key light...don't ask! I usually try to shoot T2.8 but I can't remember what it was and I don't have the sheets to hand.

We haven't transferred the footage to tape yet.
The question was a hypothetical 'what if?'. What would my options be? Does software exist to deal with this kind of thing? How does wet gate transfer work again? I thought this was for very minor scratches?

Thanks!
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:40 PM

Hi,

The shot is a full (long?) shot of a girl sitting cross legged making a heart shaped box.
The stock was the old Vision2 250D/7246. @35mm lens. Can't remember the stop as it was a bit rock n roll on that day as we had 5 mins to shoot before we lost our key light...don't ask! I usually try to shoot T2.8 but I can't remember what it was and I don't have the sheets to hand.

We haven't transferred the footage to tape yet.
The question was a hypothetical 'what if?'. What would my options be? Does software exist to deal with this kind of thing? How does wet gate transfer work again? I thought this was for very minor scratches?

Thanks!


LOok at it this way, you can probaly crop the 35 mm neg to the size of a 16mm Neg, and still keep the quality you would get from 16mm shot with the same lens! That would give you slightly half the area of a 35mm Frame.

AS far as the wet gate, it hides almost small/medium scratch on the base side of the film. If you have not made a transfer or workpint yet, why are you expecting a scratch?

Digital editing can take out scratches/wires/ and even the entire background, but it is all cost money in the form of time for someone to play with the images in editing. Every time someone says "we can fix it in post" somewhere someone in an edit suite smiles and says "KACHING"
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 11:05 PM

This may sound like a stupid answer, but as much as you want! A good example of cropping, albeit an analog one, was in an episode of the original Star Trek, where they froze a frame in an optcial printer and zoomed in on it in an animation stand. For HD, grain is indistinctly visible in a frame of 35mm, at least in my opinion, althugh a lot of the shows I watch in HD are shot on 500 stock. You're a stop slower than that, so you can crop in a tad more, but although you COULD crop in to a 16mm negative area, or even smaller, something would look "different" in the shot to critical viewers like me. You're definitely going to see larger grain, but that might not be a problem, depending on how much you overexposed, the length of time that you cut to the closeup (the longer the shot, the more likely people will notice that it is different), and the type of lighting/reflecting you did for the shot.

Are the scratches on the emulsion or the base of the film? I'd assume your noticing scratches means you are adept at "eyeballing" negatives, a lost art these days ;-) If you haven't printed/telecined the neg yet, there's a chance they might not show up at all. Some very very fine scratches aren't deep enough to transfer from neg to print. Is there any possibility that your insurance would pay for fixiing the scratches, or perhaps the lab if it is there fault?

Regards,

~Karl Borowski
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#7 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 12:10 PM

"Zooming In" to extract a smaller image area (e.g., to get a CU from a MS, or to correct composition) can be done, especially from a larger image area like 35mm. Obviously, as you increase the magnification, you get more graininess, and less sharpness by using a smaller image area on the negative.

Wet printing will generally cover all but the most severe base side scratches, and can minimize superficial emulsion-side scratches. Diffuse illumiation telecines like the Spirit are also very good at minimizing scratches. Kodak also has "Digital ICE":

http://www.kodak.com...brid/dice.jhtml

New KODAK DIGITAL ICE Technology for Motion Picture Film lets you dust bust while you scan?improving overall efficiency and predictability within the postproduction workflow.

KODAK DIGITAL ICE Technology works from within the scanner to detect and reduce dust and surface scratches without softening, blurring, or altering the image. A tri-level defect matte is generated, depicting pixels that have been altered and defects that require additional attention. So, if a defect is found that is greater than what can be corrected by the system, DIGITAL ICE Technology will identify it so the post house can easily locate and address the issue.


How it Works:
User selects degree of correction desired
Infrared channel detects density differences and defects on the film
A tri-level defect matte indicates the location and severity of the defects
Advanced pixel operation, utilizing Kodak algorithms, substantially reduces defects


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#8 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 04:54 PM

I have done a 500% zoom on a spirit on 5218 for SD PAL output - and it looked OK

thanks

Rolfe
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#9 Dominic Case

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 01:22 AM

the question . . .

Q: Is there such software that can take out mag scratches on the neg?


an answer . . .

Is there any possibility that your insurance would pay for fixiing the scratches, or perhaps the lab if it is there fault?

Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive to this sort of thing - but how can mag scratches (read the question) be the lab's fault?
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#10 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 05:29 AM

any decent comp software can be used to do scratch removal. I am not sure if there is a dedicated product for scratch removal.

There are plugins of various quailites and cost out there

for the flame you can try colorfront stardust.
http://www.colorfron...index.php3?n=21

In combustion the vector based paint module is a great tool and you can save all your work whitout render. You have also great plugin like:
- revisionFx ReFill
- redgiant Composite Wizard Wire Rig Zapper and matte tools.

for after effect you have filmfix from redgiant "The Orphanage"
http://www.redgiants...om/filmfix.html

for a standalone solution diamant film restoration
http://www.hs-art.com/

You have also cinecure from imagica
http://www.imagica-la.com/Cinecure/

and finaly discreet lustre Assistant Station.
http://www4.discreet...stre.php?id=202

thanks

Rolfe
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:39 AM

the question . . .

an answer . . .
Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive to this sort of thing - but how can mag scratches (read the question) be the lab's fault?


Didn't see the "mag" part, sorry Dominic ;-)
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