Jump to content


Photo

Windows - Location Int. Day


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Marc Levy

Marc Levy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 107 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:31 AM

Hello all,

Simple question - will a 1.2K HMI PAR (un-diffused) simulate sunlight when focused through the window (approx. 6'x5') of a location interior during the day? For example, if it is sunny outside, but the sun is not beaming directly through the window, will the 1.2K HMI PAR create that effect in relation to the skylight bouncing through the window? Will it produce the hard shadow? Will a 1.2K HMI (Fresnel) do this? I know larger HMI's are used for this - but I will not have access to any on an upcoming shoot.


Thanks,
  • 0

#2 Brian Dzyak

Brian Dzyak
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1517 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Encino, California USA

Posted 05 September 2006 - 11:40 AM

Hello all,

Simple question - will a 1.2K HMI PAR (un-diffused) simulate sunlight when focused through the window (approx. 6'x5') of a location interior during the day? For example, if it is sunny outside, but the sun is not beaming directly through the window, will the 1.2K HMI PAR create that effect in relation to the skylight bouncing through the window? Will it produce the hard shadow? Will a 1.2K HMI (Fresnel) do this? I know larger HMI's are used for this - but I will not have access to any on an upcoming shoot.
Thanks,


I'm pretty sure not, but then again I never tried with that specific light. I think that if I were in that situation, the best way to enhance the tools you have would be to cut as much ambient light as possible. Because of what I do and the environments I find myself in, I find that my very best friend can be the lack of latitude (in video). By cutting out all unwanted spill from my background, I can virtually make the background disappear when I don't want to see it by overpowering some foreground element with more light than might seem necessary. It's similar to the Noir strategy.

Anyway, I think it might work in your case if you keep the overall interior level way down so that you need the lens wrench to get enough stop to shoot. ;) Add a subtle touch of "smoke" to the room so that you see the beam of light and you may be able to get away with it. That might take care of the exposure issue but perhaps a more difficult problem is one of overall size of the beam. I don't know that you could ever get enough spread from a small unit to make it look like anything other than a skinny beam being shot through a window. Maybe using a mirror might help? I don't know. I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say.... :)
  • 0

#3 Timothy David Orme

Timothy David Orme
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 105 posts
  • Director
  • Boise, ID

Posted 05 September 2006 - 12:04 PM

This sort of brings up a general question for me, but a question much along the same lines.

A new project I'm going to be working on in a few months is going to involve some major set building on my part. How much light do you need for windows? I don't have any HMIs--in fact I was looking to use tungsten lights with daylight correection gels over them--and I know they put out more light than tungsten, but is there any kind of scale you can use to judge how much l ight you need for a given window?

What kind of experiences, practical application examples do you guys have? Whenever I read something in a cinematography magazine it always seems as though the people have 20k HMIs or something and I was wondering if there's options for those of us on a slightly smaller budget.
  • 0

#4 Greg Gross

Greg Gross
  • Sustaining Members
  • 869 posts
  • Harrisburg,PA

Posted 05 September 2006 - 01:55 PM

Have you thought about creating a set up to see how it looks?

Greg Gross
  • 0

#5 Brian Dzyak

Brian Dzyak
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1517 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Encino, California USA

Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:19 PM

This sort of brings up a general question for me, but a question much along the same lines.

A new project I'm going to be working on in a few months is going to involve some major set building on my part. How much light do you need for windows? I don't have any HMIs--in fact I was looking to use tungsten lights with daylight correection gels over them--and I know they put out more light than tungsten, but is there any kind of scale you can use to judge how much l ight you need for a given window?

What kind of experiences, practical application examples do you guys have? Whenever I read something in a cinematography magazine it always seems as though the people have 20k HMIs or something and I was wondering if there's options for those of us on a slightly smaller budget.


I'm not quite sure I understand the situation you'll be in fully. If you're looking to do the "shaft o' light" gag, see the above for possible ways around having a large source. If you don't need that, but need to see something "outside," you'll need a large backdrop or translight to fake whatever is supposed to be out there. That of course needs to be lit up appropriately. Or you could always just carefully attach "white out" diffusion to each window (on the outside) and hit it with something bright and broad. That plays on the "lack of latitude" situation that you may or may not have. Or just rewrite everything to be NIGHT. :)
  • 0

#6 timHealy

timHealy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1252 posts
  • Other
  • New York

Posted 05 September 2006 - 02:51 PM

Hello all,

Simple question - will a 1.2K HMI PAR (un-diffused) simulate sunlight when focused through the window (approx. 6'x5') of a location interior during the day? For example, if it is sunny outside, but the sun is not beaming directly through the window, will the 1.2K HMI PAR create that effect in relation to the skylight bouncing through the window? Will it produce the hard shadow? Will a 1.2K HMI (Fresnel) do this? I know larger HMI's are used for this - but I will not have access to any on an upcoming shoot.
Thanks,


I love using pars (HMI's or tungsten) but there is a compromise. Pars are great if you need the heat of a par beam for an exposure, but they just won't have the spread of a fresnel 18k or 20k for example. But if you don't have the manpower, budget, and electric available, one has to make do with what you have.

Best

Tim
  • 0

#7 Kar Wai Ng

Kar Wai Ng
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 127 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Toronto, Canada

Posted 05 September 2006 - 05:55 PM

I had this exact situation on a film I shot back in the spring. As a student film, we were lucky to even afford a 1.2K HMI...

In retrospect, the 1.2K HMI wasn't quite enough to simulate sunlight the way I wanted it to. We had a fresnel (a PAR would have been better), shining into a north-facing patio door, lighting a kitchen (going for a bright, high-key morning aesthetic.) We rigged up some C-stands and grip arms, some black cloth and tarps to create a tent over the HMI, blocking out as much ambient daylight as possible, trying to make the light from the HMI as directional as we could without added skylight.

At EI 160, and with sheer white drapes, I was getting about 5.6 from about 5 feet away from the patio door, and dropping down to 2.8 deeper into the kitchen.

Ideally, I would have liked something more powerful like a 2.4K PAR or higher, placing the light further away from the patio door to get the same exposure inside but a smaller disparity in dropoff throughout the kitchen. And of course, some large butterflies to block out sunlight would have been a lot less sketchy than our set up (take a peek at http://tinyurl.com/m4q52).
  • 0

#8 Marc Levy

Marc Levy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 107 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 05 September 2006 - 06:56 PM

Let me modify the question. I need feedback on how others would approach this: I have a location interior day with a few 1.2K HMI's, 1K open faces, 1K Fresnels, and 4x4 Kino Flo banks. The 3 windows are facing South East, and a street, and will be in the Master shot. I may exclude them from the tighter coverage. There are no buildings blocking the sun's path. I am on the fence about whether to -- Try to control the windows when they are visible (although this seems very difficult with my package) so I can maintain consistency throughout, or -- Let the windows do what they will (although there will probably be hard sunlight beaming in, as we are shooting in the morning), and replicate that effect in coverage.

Note, I need a somewhat high key look, but want to retain a good bit of modelling as well.

My gut says: shoot the master as the windows are. Hope for a sunny day, schedule the Master so it happens when the sun beams through (I have SunPath), or use mirrors to throw it in. Use the HMI's with chimeras or something to fill in the harsh contrast ratio in the tighter stuff. Do it all when the sun is in the relatively same position, and I'm good.

What do you guys think? Thanks.
  • 0

#9 timHealy

timHealy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1252 posts
  • Other
  • New York

Posted 06 September 2006 - 08:02 AM

If the producer and director are on your side, nothing can replicate the sun quite like the sun. Especially very large rooms. I would go for that if the time, location and weather permit .

Best

Tim
  • 0


Rig Wheels Passport

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

The Slider

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

CineTape

Ritter Battery

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio

Opal

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Wooden Camera

CineLab

The Slider

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

Visual Products

Metropolis Post

Technodolly

Abel Cine