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A-wind vs. B-wind


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#1 Brad Skiles

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 03:46 AM

I know my camera takes B-wind 1R film.

What's the difference between A-wind and B-wind film? I know it has something to do with how it is loaded on the core so that sprocket holes line up correctly. Or am I wrong about this? I think this would be especially important with single perf film, but how about double perf?


Thanks,

Brad
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#2 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 06:59 AM

This applies to emulsion-in. (just about everything, in other words).
Hold the roll with the leader facing you, hanging down. B-wind (for camera film) has the perfs on the right. A-wind (usually print film IIRC) has the perfs on the left.
If you think about it, double-perf film can't have a winding designation. But then, it's tougher to find these days as no-one wants it for Super-16 and hardly anyone uses film for high-speed any more.
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#3 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 11:43 AM

If you think about it, double-perf film can't have a winding designation. But then, it's tougher to find these days as no-one wants it for Super-16 and hardly anyone uses film for high-speed any more.


Once it gets in the lab an is being set up for prints and dupes the wind is very important.
Camera originals are B-wind. An I/N from a reversal original is A-wind, while an I/N from a negative original
will be B-wind since it's printed from an A-wind I/N
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#4 Sam Wells

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 12:11 PM

If you think about it, double-perf film can't have a winding designation. But then, it's tougher to find these days as no-one wants it for Super-16 and hardly anyone uses film for high-speed any more.


It's confusing because the terms A Wind & B Wind are used in two different ways, but with respect to the original question, Emulsion In (EI on Kodak can label) and Emulsion Out (EO) can apply to Single OR Double perf film - 16mm or 35mm etc

-Sam
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 09:29 PM

It's confusing because the terms A Wind & B Wind are used in two different ways, but with respect to the original question, Emulsion In (EI on Kodak can label) and Emulsion Out (EO) can apply to Single OR Double perf film - 16mm or 35mm etc
-Sam

and if you think about it, a roll that is emusion OUT would need to be wound A wind as far as the perferations go, like the stock for the A-Minima.

I always just try to get a methal picture of the finished film. If it reads right the perfs are on the left and the sound is on the right (in 16mm) [35 of course has perf on both sides and the sound on the left] working from their it is not too hard to picture that for a camera that opens on the users left, as seen from the back, (like most of them) the perfs have to be farthest from the opening....
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#6 Dominic Case

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Posted 10 September 2006 - 07:59 PM

It's confusing because the terms A Wind & B Wind are used in two different ways,

In my book I tried to introduce the term A-type and B-type to designate exposed film, (as explained by Leo), while keeping the terms A-wind and B-wind for the way in which raw stock is supplied.

If you have A-wind raw stock, you can rewind it and you get B-wind.

If you have an A-type negative (eg an internegative made by contact printing from a camera original reversal) then no amount of rewinding will change it.

If you think about it, double-perf film can't have a winding designation.

Well it can, to the extent that the edge numbers (Keykode) are on one edge of the film and not on the other.
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#7 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 03:07 PM

Well I know I am posting this reply very late :-) Anyway: since it's confusing (both where the emulsion is and how the film is wound - even harder to understand with double-perf 16mm or any 35mm and larger), I see it this way: In a 16mm camera (single-perf film) I see it in a reels-side-by-side-way (coaxial mags work the same way, but "folded") the film is loaded from the camera's left hand side, sprocket claw - as well as the sprocket holes - on the bottom. Look at the fresh film spool: the film comes out on the bottom end with the emulsion in. Then you load it through the gate so the emulsion faces the film gate and the lens (light hits the emulsion directly). Then it goes out to the take up reel where the film goes in on top and ends up "tail out" on top. In a typical vintage Super8, 16mm or 35mm (not all models in that format!!!) movie projector this is different. The emulsion is now out (as it was in the camera) in the "heads out" (or ready-to-project), but the film comes out from the top end (so the film "twist" is the opposite as it was in the camera). Projectors are typically operated on their right hand side (unlike the camera) and the sprocket claw is facing you. There are exceptions where the emulsion is "in" on a ready-to-project print, because these were certain types of contact prints (where both emulsions are facing each other directly during printing). It is much less crucial where the emulsion is in a projector. In a camera the emulsion (usually a beige/creme color) needs to be always facing the film gate because the backing (acetate or polyester) has a very dark protective coating to avoid light coming through - stripped off during processing.

Nowadays with digital scanning, a lot of the confusion (especially with various stages of optical (= through lenses) and contact (= both emulsions sandwiched together) prints out of the workflow) is solved. Rule of thumb: in the camera the fresh "heads out" reel is on top or in front (coax mag: on the right hand side) and the film comes out with the emulsion in, so that after the top loop the (beige/creme colored) emulsion faces the film gate. Hope this explains it.

 

One last word (for folks new to film): the word "print" is a take over from the old Technicolor three strip days where the colors literally were printed onto blank, transparent film. Nowadays a "print" refers to a "copy", and a "release print" is the final film ready for projection in movie theaters.

 

Cheers,

Christian


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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 03:17 PM

and if you think about it, a roll that is emusion OUT would need to be wound A wind as far as the perferations go, like the stock for the A-Minima.

I was going to say, the only A-wind film I've ever heard about was for the A-Minima 200ft spools.


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#9 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 03:50 PM

I was going to say, the only A-wind film I've ever heard about was for the A-Minima 200ft spools.

Thanks for the information. Need to take a closer look (internet search....) at the unique mechanism of the Aaton A-Minima. I've heard it works best with acetate based film (such as Kodak Vision 3).


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#10 Ari Michael Leeds

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 04:09 PM

Well "works best with acetate film" means the film will tear in the event of a jam.  [Poly]estar film will break the MECHANISM before the film itself breaks.

Seen it happen in a film projector.  Not pretty.  $100 repair.  Fortunately that was a 2-projector changeover.  On a film set or a one-projector screen, no more movie until the machine is repaired. . .


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#11 Christian Schonberger

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 05:32 PM

Well "works best with acetate film" means the film will tear in the event of a jam.  [Poly]estar film will break the MECHANISM before the film itself breaks.

Seen it happen in a film projector.  Not pretty.  $100 repair.  Fortunately that was a 2-projector changeover.  On a film set or a one-projector screen, no more movie until the machine is repaired. . .

Yep, I know. Thanks for the information anyway. :-)

I got the "works best with acetate film" from a Wikipedia article (not always the most reliable source I should mention), since this camera has a unique design regarding the film path. I'd love to see some pictures. Will check ASAP.

 

A film enthusiast on YouTube actually tried estar film with the A-Minima: Wittner-Chrome 200D. He made it work, no "focus pumping" and the likes. But I know it from Super8mm way back in the day: Estar/Mylar film will not break but run over the claws and mechanism, often ruining it (I imagine the more complex 35mm projector and camera mechanics/registration.... Glad you had two machines instead of a huge spool or platter system.

 

I plan on using the Wittner (I know, it has a milky, washed out look to it) for a first camera test on my converted K-3 (which I bought as my first inexpensive entry into Super 16mm), since it is easy to get where I am located and processing/scanning/grading is very affordable (good old E6 reversal process). Will test the camera with old exposed, unprocessed acetate film first (and practice loading). So I will know the sound and feel. If I hear anything strange while filming with the Wittner estar stock, I'll immediately stop, get the film (the heck) out of the camera - and hope that it didn't ruin anything....  The deal with Kodak Vision 3 I can get from a supplier in the UK (complete turnaround all included - top notch quality) is way more expensive since I need to buy at least 4 x 100 ft reels (which is nothing for a film supplier, but a lot for a guy with very limited budget). I wish I had more choices regarding film stock and processing/scanning. I'm located in Europe - basically only Germany and the UK offer supplies and services here. I might look around a little further. Thanks for the reply and for reading my ramblings, I can talk (and listen to people talk about) FILM 24/7 :-)

 

Best wishes,

C.


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