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which would you buy?


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#1 LondonFilmMan

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 08:57 AM

Which would you buy...

A Kinor 16mm with OPF lens

or

Bolex H16 SBM with Kern Vario-Switar

I'd love to know as I must decide a.s.a.p.

Thanks,
Robert
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#2 shutter bug

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:30 AM

Which would you buy...

A Kinor 16mm with OPF lens

or

Bolex H16 SBM with Kern Vario-Switar

I'd love to know as I must decide a.s.a.p.

Thanks,
Robert




without hesitation the bolex
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#3 Scott Bullock

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:50 AM

Definitely the Bolex. I have an SBM myself and I absolutely love it. It's adaptable to many different types of shooting.
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#4 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:20 AM

I would go for the Kinor. It is more modern and uses a registration pin. The OFP (10-100mm) lens has a good reputation. I'm guessing it is more quiet compared to the Bolex.
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#5 Scott Bullock

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 03:17 PM

I would go for the Kinor. It is more modern and uses a registration pin. The OFP (10-100mm) lens has a good reputation. I'm guessing it is more quiet compared to the Bolex.


More modern? Can you still buy a Kinor that is brand new like you can a Bolex SBM? I'm not that familiar with the Kinor cameras, but I'm willing to bet that the Bolex will do a ton of things that the Kinor can only dream of.
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#6 David Sweetman

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 03:25 PM

I've always looked at the kinor with curious interest. Of course I can't advise one way or the other just based on that, but for myself, it's why I'd go for the kinor.
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#7 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:18 PM

More modern?


It has a more modern design compareble to a Arri SR.

I'm not that familiar with the Kinor cameras, but I'm willing to bet that the Bolex will do a ton of things that the Kinor can only dream of.


Could you give some examples what you think a Bolex could do that a Kinor lacks? Just curious, because I'm as familiar with the Bolex as you are with the Kinor ;)

Edited by Tomas Stacewicz, 14 September 2006 - 04:20 PM.

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#8 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:38 PM

Can you still buy a Kinor that is brand new like you can a Bolex SBM?


Yes you can: http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
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#9 Scott Bullock

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 05:27 PM

It has a more modern design compareble to a Arri SR.
Could you give some examples what you think a Bolex could do that a Kinor lacks? Just curious, because I'm as familiar with the Bolex as you are with the Kinor ;)


Sure thing: To the best of my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely not an expert on Russian cameras, the Kinor only runs at one speed, which is 25 fps. The Bolex SBM runs at numerous speeds, from fast motion to normal speed to slow motion. I don't believe the Kinor is capable of single frame -- perhaps they make an animation motor, I don't know. The Bolex SBM is capable of time lapse photography, even without a special motor. The Bolex is capable of in-camera trick photography: double exposures, fades, lap-dissolves, etc. The Bolex is adaptable to many different types of motors: animation, time lapse, variable speed, crystal, etc.

Anyway, those are the things that come immediately to mind.

Dave, are you positive the Kinor is still available brand new? Or is that eBay listing just for "old/new" stock? I mean, you can still buy Russian SKS rifles that are still packed in grease in their original packaging, which some may consider being as new, but they were all manufactured 50 years ago.

Anyway, I have very limited experience with Kinor cameras, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut. After all, I do have a certain bias toward the Bolex because I own one.


Sorry, Tomas, I just now realized that it was you who posted the link to eBay, not Dave Sweetman.
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#10 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 06:00 PM

Sure thing: To the best of my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely not an expert on Russian cameras, the Kinor only runs at one speed, which is 25 fps. The Bolex SBM runs at numerous speeds, from fast motion to normal speed to slow motion.


True, it runs on 25 fps (alt. 24 fps). But there are technicians that easily do modifications of the original 29EPSS motor to crystal sync in various speeds from fast motion to slow motion. But that requires the camera being sent away several months and expenses amounting up to the cost of buying the camera.

Crystal sync modification can be had at:

Olexandr Kalynychenko (Ukraine) http://www.geocities.../russiancamera/

or

Anders Banke (Sweden) http://www.solidentertainment.se/

Slow Motion Inc. http://www.slowmotio....com/index.html also does this conversion, as well as a PL-mount and Super16 conversion

Les Bosher (UK) http://www.lesbosher.co.uk/ doses a fine job doing a PL-mount and Super16 conversion

So, as you see. The possibilities are many with the Kinor-16.

I don't believe the Kinor is capable of single frame -- perhaps they make an animation motor, I don't know. The Bolex SBM is capable of time lapse photography, even without a special motor.


No, the Kinor doesn't do single frame photography or timelapse. But neither does the Arri SR, or Aaton or Eclair (to my knowledge; I may be mistaken). But a Krasnogorsk 3 (the russian Bolex) does single frame photography. In my opinion the Bolex has more in common with the K-3 in its design (albeit the K-3 is not as andvanced); an internal magazine for daylight loads, spring wound with possibilties to having an external motor attached, (non movable) viewfinder built into the body, etc.

The Bolex is capable of in-camera trick photography: double exposures, fades, lap-dissolves, etc.


The Kinor doesn't do this either, but again neither does the Arri, Aaton....etc.

The Bolex is adaptable to many different types of motors: animation, time lapse, variable speed, crystal, etc.


You can have different types of motor for the Kinor too, according to your needs (variable speed and crystal sync), but not time lapse.

are you positive the Kinor is still available brand new? Or is that eBay listing just for "old/new" stock?


The Kinor-16 SX-2M hasn't been manufacured since 1992 so the "new" cameras that can be bought on E-Bay are not recently manifacured. But then again, I didn't know that the Bolex still was being made today.

Edited by Tomas Stacewicz, 14 September 2006 - 06:02 PM.

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#11 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 06:23 PM

The Bolex is capable of in-camera trick photography: double exposures, fades, lap-dissolves, etc.


Aren't these charasteristics superfluous in theese digital editing times? Sure, it can be fun doing these effects as in old times, but there probably are reasons why professional cameras doesn't have these functions today.

Edited by Tomas Stacewicz, 14 September 2006 - 06:24 PM.

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#12 Scott Bullock

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 11:26 PM

Tomas, I'll never deliberately "dog" an individual for making a camera purchase and keeping the legacy of cinematography alive and well, so don't expect me to belabor the issue with a bunch of verbiage regarding which camera is better than the other. All I'm doing here is stating simple facts. You are correct in your stance that the Kinor and Bolex cameras are suited to different purposes. I own two synch cameras myself, so I fully understand that my Eclair ACL package (I don't own a Kinor, I'm certain the Eclair ACL is comparable) lands me more work than my Bolex does. It all depends on what the intended use of the camera is: My ACL makes me more money, but my Bolex brings me more personal satisfaction that extends beyond pure financial concerns.

I shot with a Kinor about 10 years ago and thought it was fine as far as synch cameras go, and so are a lot of other cameras, including Aaton, Arriflex, Eclair, etc. I suppose that the Bolex simply has a more 'personal' feel about it. Sure, there's no need for in-camera tricks, there never has been (unless you intend to plan certain shots to do in-camera effects that would otherwise be very costly to do in the lab or post), but it's still capable of being used for animation, time-lapse, etc. at a price that is far more attainable than any synch camera is capable of. I've used the Bolex, depending on the situation of course, for second unit photography, music videos, time-lapse, stop- frame, inserts, cut-aways, and a host of situations where only an MOS camera was needed. Yes, if you are shooting dialogue heavy scenes -- if that is your 'need' -- then the Bolex SBM isn't the way to go. But if you need to "steal" a shot, do a quick pick up shot, or have a desire to do animation and/or a host of other "cheap" effects (because you don't have a tremendous budget, let's say), then, in my opinion, the Bolex can't be beat, not even by the mighty K3.

Let me put it this way: I've never owned anything that even approaches an Arri SR3, for example; I get by just fine using an Eclair ACL, an NPR, and my Bolex SBM. But if I could only have one 16mm camera I honestly think it would be the Bolex. Its possibilities are multitudinous, and it's an efficient, economical, and personal way of harnessing the power of cinematography.

So much for "belaboring" the issue! :)

If you need a synch camera quiet enough for dialogue, then you need a synch camera quiet enough for dialogue, there's no way around that. Otherwise, the Bolex is the way to go; that's just my opinion.
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#13 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 02:56 AM

Yes, if you are shooting dialogue heavy scenes -- if that is your 'need' -- then the Bolex SBM isn't the way to go. But if you need to "steal" a shot, do a quick pick up shot, or have a desire to do animation and/or a host of other "cheap" effects (because you don't have a tremendous budget, let's say), then, in my opinion, the Bolex can't be beat, not even by the mighty K3.


Well spoken Scott. You almost made me want to buy a Bolex ;)
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#14 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 11:24 AM

More modern? Can you still buy a Kinor that is brand new like you can a Bolex SBM? I'm not that familiar with the Kinor cameras, but I'm willing to bet that the Bolex will do a ton of things that the Kinor can only dream of.


The very good opinion : " I'm not that familiar with the Kinor cameras, but I'm willing to bet that the Bolex will do a ton of things that the Kinor can only dream of ".
Will be better, if you take Bolex and Kinor and compare of all sides of this cameras :
- technical characteristics,
- design of mechanism, parts and quality of manufacturing,
- technical possiblities,
- reliability
- set of prime and zoom lenses
and more, more ets.

Yes, Bolex show like " fiancee " or " Swiss watch ", but, we need reliable tools for shoot at any condition and at every day too.

Any case, the every user will choose better camera for use.

If we told about technical possibilities of Kinor cameras, i wish inform about one of modification of electrical motor.

[attachment=1461:attachment]

This is version receive additional function of stoping of axis of mechanism ( mirror disk ) on fixed position for viewing ( shutter parking ).


This is :
1. wide list of crystal sync speeds :
6.25, 8, 12, 12.5, 15, 16, 16.6, 20, 24, 25, 30, 32, 33,3, 40, 48, 50 fps.

This is list included a few series of speeds :
- for ? academy ? film shooting with base speed 24 fps and a speeds divisible by 24
8, 12, 16, 24, 32, 48,
- for PAL TV shooting and 50 HZ frequency of main power, with base speed 25 fps and a speeds divisible by 25
6.25, 12.5, 16.6, 25, 33,3, 50
- for NTSC TV shooting and 60 Hz frequency of main power, with base speed 30 fps and a speeds divisible by 30
8, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 40,

2. The new version of motor have 4 pin XLR cannon power connector, international standard of power connector of cine and video equipments.
3. New style of fuse holder for international glass fuses.
4. Soft start and soft stop of motor. This is technical possibilities very important for run camera on high speed.
5. Shutter Parking stops the camera each time in the viewing position.
6. Manual adjust of phase of speed at run mode and manual turn of axis on low sped at stop mode.
7 Wide system of sound information. The electronic confirm you correct loading of program with on of motor, at run of motor, at stop of motor, at stop of motor on fixed position, beep of not crystal sync speed.
8. Light signal of not crystal sync speed.
9. The electronics have protective diode from connect battery with reversal polarity
10. The electronics have high power output stage with high power reserve, 55V, 75 A
11. The new edition of motor can have digital voltmeter for show condition of battery.


If the users will need ( and will ready to pay )a time lepse motor or single shooting motor, this is possible too.

If you will have more questions, send me letter on e-mail olex@a-teleport.com
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#15 Robert G Andrews

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 04:39 PM

Just so you know, I have decided upon an 'upgraded' version of the Kinor 16 with the different speeds because of the shap of the camera and because it is a 400 load straight off the bat and because it isn't wind-up. Also, Bolex, I heard were better for animation....is this right? Best to all from ***LondonFilmMan***

Edited by Robert G Andrews, 15 September 2006 - 04:40 PM.

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#16 Tomas Stacewicz

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 05:12 PM

Good choice!
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#17 Rik Andino

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 03:12 AM

Which would you buy...

A Kinor 16mm with OPF lens

or

Bolex H16 SBM with Kern Vario-Switar

I'd love to know as I must decide a.s.a.p.

Thanks,
Robert


Both cameras are at the low-end of the 16mm pole...

But if you ask me you have to figure what you're using it for...

A Kinor is closer to a professional 16mm camera such as the Arri SR or Aaton
However it's reliability is questionable...
And it usually requires some shop-work before it can be adapted for your needs
But once you've got it checked & adapted by a good tech...
I'm sure it's decent enough for a serious production...
Althought by no means better than an Arri or Aaton--but for low budget work... :)

While the Bolex (very good for what it is) is more of a student & amatuer camera.
It is very reliable and has some pretty nifty feature and it's a cool camera to learn on
But if you're doing a serious production fugeddabout it.
However I like the Bolex it was the first 16mm camera I ever worked with.


If you have to choose between these two cameras--just get an Aaton :lol:
Seriously just think about what you'll be doing with it
And then pick the camera that will best help you accomplish your goals.


Good Luck
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#18 Marty Hamrick

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 08:45 AM

Definitely the Bolex.It's more versatile with the speeds and such,repair,service and accessories are easy to come by and as for me, I have experience with Bolexes,I trust them.Never worked with a Kinor.
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#19 Richardson Leao

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 09:53 AM

I have a kinor 16 that Olexandr modified and I simply love it. Simple, quite, very, very reliable. Never seen a bolex but I guess I found the last 16mm camera i'll ever have.
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#20 Ole Dost

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:53 AM

Just so you know, I have decided upon an 'upgraded' version of the Kinor 16 with the different speeds because of the shap of the camera and because it is a 400 load straight off the bat and because it isn't wind-up. Also, Bolex, I heard were better for animation....is this right? Best to all from ***LondonFilmMan***



I'was owning the Beaulieu R16, the Canon Scoopic and the Krasnogorsk 3 until I finally got the Kinor 16 sx-2m. And this is what I think about it: The Kinor beats them all! The pin registration and the great lenses as the 10-100mm are producing pictures in true "Arri-SR-Level". And you can use the Kinor without Tripod on your shoulder. This is not possible with any Bolex except of the Bolex 16 Pro. A great advantage of the Kinor: The 100ft and 400ft-Mags are interchangeable very easily! This is also not possible with a Bolex. So I wonder, whre these "tons" are, that a Bolex can do beyond a Kinor. I chose the Upgrade Kit offered by Olexandr Kalynychenko including the different frame-speeds. All this works great. Take the Kinor, ask Olexandr for the upgrade, and you will surely not regret your choice!
Ole
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