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loading in total darkness


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#1 wael

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 11:21 AM

Hello ,
i am using some Kodak Eastman 7231 and 7222 b/w negativ ,

it s written -load in total darkness . My camera is Krasnogorsk 3 and makes it realy hard to load in total darkness .
i am loading in some dark places , but not " total dark " , my question is ; i will have problemes ?

thanks ,

w
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#2 Rory Hanrahan

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 12:33 PM

Because the K3 takes daylight spools, which feature flanges that protect the film from ambient light, you are safe to load in a subdued light setting rather than in total darkness. Because of the spool design, only the the first 5-10 feet or so are really subject to exposure while loading. I've loaded my Bolex (same basic design) outdoors on very sunny days (loaded in the shade) and experienced no problem, though your best bet is to find the darkest place possible.

If you were loading film on a core (no daylight spool) you would have no choice but to load in TOTAL darkness. No light, not even "darkroom safe" lights, are OK for unexposed film.
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#3 wael

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 12:39 PM

thanks ,

i used Bolex before , and as you said , i always tried to load it in a dark corner or so , as i remember , on the film box was written ' day light loading ' ,
at the 7222 it s written 'total dark ' that s why i get confused ..

thanks any way

w
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#4 Rory Hanrahan

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 12:54 PM

After a quick freezer check I see what you're referring to. The low light/total dark differentiation is based on whether the stock is negative or reversal. According to Kodak, reversal is OK to load in low light, while negative (like '22) is intended for total darkness only. While I'm not one to suggest disregarding Kodak's labeling, I've loaded 500 ASA negative in low light withot losing much more than the first few winds on the spool. Be quick and be careful and you should be fine.
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#5 wael

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 01:02 PM

it s negative , and the films look like beeing transparent if you pose it in front of a light . ..
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#6 Will Montgomery

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 04:48 PM

For loading my K3, I go to the bathroom (no windows) and crack the door until I can barely see. Once my eyes are used to it I begin the loading process. Haven't had any foging since I started doing that.
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#7 dr_gonzo

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 04:56 PM

For loading my K3, I go to the bathroom (no windows) and crack the door until I can barely see. Once my eyes are used to it I begin the loading process. Haven't had any foging since I started doing that.



ive never have a problem while loading a daylight spool in broad daylight. Sure you flash the ends of the negative, but they can prove usefull at times.

And once due to a rip in the changing bag I had to load and download all my 400' cans in my bathroom. Its not completely light safe with the door closed but there were no negative effects at all!
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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 08:25 PM

I've had slight edge fog when loading in Daylight with higher speed films. I'd bet Kodachrome and maybe Vision2 50D are no problem though. My lab tech is pretty anal about any fogging and lets me know if there's any at all. With Super 16 its more of an issue of course.
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#9 David Venhaus

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 11:48 PM

I agree with what the others have said about loading daylight spools in subdued light, it usually only fogs a few feet of film. If you really want to load the camera in total darkness, it just takes some practice. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. There is advantages to loading in total darkness, it is that you don't waste any film and there are no worries about the first shots on the roll being fogged or partially fogged.
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#10 Bob Hayes

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 12:47 AM

Try keeping the film in a changing bag in a dark room. Pull out what you need to thread the camera and then turn off he lights for the final steps. This is was the only way I was able to load a Cameflex camera quickly.
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#11 Matthew Buick

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 11:03 AM

Get some cheap Soviet Night-Vision Goggles, sorted. :D
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#12 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 03:23 PM

After a quick freezer check I see what you're referring to. The low light/total dark differentiation is based on whether the stock is negative or reversal. According to Kodak, reversal is OK to load in low light, while negative (like '22) is intended for total darkness only. While I'm not one to suggest disregarding Kodak's labeling, I've loaded 500 ASA negative in low light withot losing much more than the first few winds on the spool. Be quick and be careful and you should be fine.


No. It's not whether the film is reversal or neg.
It's whether the film is on a daylight spool or a core.

Though an estar base should be loaded in a darkroom or bag.

B/W doesn't have the REMjet backing hat color neg has, so that could fog deeper in the roll.

Edited by Leo Anthony Vale, 14 September 2006 - 03:25 PM.

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#13 Rory Hanrahan

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:31 PM

It's whether the film is on a daylight spool or a core.



The reference I was using was Kodak '76 B/W reversal ("low light") vs '77 color neg ("total darkness"), both in original daylight spool packaging. It's also not an issue of B/W vs negative, as the '22 is a B/W neg and is labeled "total darkness" as previously stated.

I stand by what I posted earlier, and even made reference to the daylight spool/core issue. The estar/remjet comments are good to know though, and I'd be interested to know if there are any other factors as to why Kodak would differentiate between "low light" and "darkness".
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#14 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 08:06 AM

The reference I was using was Kodak '76 B/W reversal ("low light") vs '77 color neg ("total darkness"), both in original daylight spool packaging. It's also not an issue of B/W vs negative, as the '22 is a B/W neg and is labeled "total darkness" as previously stated.

I stand by what I posted earlier, and even made reference to the daylight spool/core issue. The estar/remjet comments are good to know though, and I'd be interested to know if there are any other factors as to why Kodak would differentiate between "low light" and "darkness".


As the technical data is updated, Kodak is moving toward a "load in total darkness" recommendation, mostly because with spools loaded in any light, there is always some risk of edgefog. Today, the increased use of Super-16 and machine-readable KEYKODE edge numbers make any edgefog problematic, whereas a bit of edgefog was not an issue with Regular-16 and visual matching of edgenumbers on a workprint.
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#15 Clive Tobin

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 12:16 AM

The reference I was using was Kodak '76 B/W reversal ("low light") vs '77 color neg ("total darkness"), both in original daylight spool packaging. It's also not an issue of B/W vs negative, as the '22 is a B/W neg and is labeled "total darkness" as previously stated....


The B&W films are on a grey base, and the density goes up exponentially for light fog coming from the edge, so edge fog is not such a problem in practice unless you are shooting super-16 or else single system optical sound.

Color film is mostly on a clear base, or used to be, with only the rem-jet back coating to prevent halation. So light coming from the edge has free rein to light pipe or else bounce around, and fog quite far across the film. Perhaps some color films now have some antihalo coating also below the emulsion which minimizes this problem.

I think Kodak is in a CYA mode since everyone has a quite different idea of just what "subdued light" means. Also the film takes up without the scatter wind done by Kodak to maximize fog protection, so the exposed film spool is much more sensitive to edge fog.
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#16 James Erd

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 03:03 PM

Try keeping the film in a changing bag in a dark room. Pull out what you need to thread the camera and then turn off he lights for the final steps. This is was the only way I was able to load a Cameflex camera quickly.



I don't know why more people don't do it this way. My technique is slightly different. For 100' day light loads I use the black plastic box with a reasonable amount of film sticking out for threading. I'll usually set up four or five rolls this way ahead of time and keep them in a safe place. This way I only have to use the changing bag to remove the exposed film and to put the fresh role on it's spindle. It's so much easier to do this way especially when the camera needs to stay put, and that saves even more time, though it's till not as fast as a 400' mag :(
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#17 Nick Mulder

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 05:23 PM

When spooling my daylight reels from 400ft cores I make a point of 'wiggling' the film near the end of the roll so that the film alternately butts up against the flanges making a light trap, if you let it wind nice and cleanly instead you can end up with the film butted up all on one side of the daylight reel leaving a gap of around ~0.3mm for light to travel down ...

Seems to work, but I'm not too fussed at the moment as i'm using standard 16 cameras
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#18 Dominic Case

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 07:42 PM

Get some junk stock and practice loading your camera in complete darkness. If you practice enough, it will become second nature. For many seemingly complicated tasks you don't need to see anything. Can you tie your shoelaces? Do you need to look? Perhaps you can send text messages without looking at the keys. Visit a processing lab and see the machines that the operators run there in total darkness (really total!). And they do it against the clock while the machine is runnning. It can be done.
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#19 Richardson Leao

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 08:05 PM

Get some junk stock and practice loading your camera in complete darkness. If you practice enough, it will become second nature. For many seemingly complicated tasks you don't need to see anything. Can you tie your shoelaces? Do you need to look? Perhaps you can send text messages without looking at the keys. Visit a processing lab and see the machines that the operators run there in total darkness (really total!). And they do it against the clock while the machine is runnning. It can be done.


Dominic is right and if you don't have the loop formers on the K3 it's very easy to adjust the loop and load the camera. I load mine in total darkness.
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#20 Arni Heimir

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 08:55 PM

Get some junk stock and practice loading your camera in complete darkness. If you practice enough, it will become second nature. For many seemingly complicated tasks you don't need to see anything. Can you tie your shoelaces? Do you need to look? Perhaps you can send text messages without looking at the keys. Visit a processing lab and see the machines that the operators run there in total darkness (really total!). And they do it against the clock while the machine is runnning. It can be done.


How can the lab guys spent so much time in total darkness. Don't they become depressed after awhile. I doubt they are in it for the money.
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