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Is my daylight filter working on my R10?


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#1 Andrew Means

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 02:35 PM

So my first roll of super8 came back rather blue- and as we hadn't displaced the built-in daylight filter, I thought that it could be that my daylight filter wasn't in place/working.

I don't have the key to displace the filter, but looking at the slot I was able to see the little tab that the key displaces. When I pushed it down with a kitchen knife it moved smoothly and easily, and I could hear some operation occuring inside the camera, but I couldn't see any change in the viewfinder. Should I be able to see a change?

What do you guys think?
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#2 Bernie O'Doherty

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:14 PM

Hi, Andrew,

This is going to sound complicated, but it's worth a try. What you really want to try to see is what the film sees (not what the viewfinder sees--you won't see any change here). That means you have to find a way to look through either the lens at the aperture plate area or through the aperture plate area at the lens.

When you hold a piece of white paper at the aperture where the film would go and look through the lens, the paper should look white if there is no internal 85 filter (you might need a flashlight). If there is an internal filter in place, the paper of course will look orange. If it's easier to look through the back of the aperture plate with a dental mirror and see what's cooking with the lens, you can come to the same conclusions. It's ten times easier if the lens can be taken off the camera, but most times this is not the case.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bernie
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#3 Andrew Means

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:17 PM

Hi, Andrew,

This is going to sound complicated, but it's worth a try. What you really want to try to see is what the film sees (not what the viewfinder sees--you won't see any change here). That means you have to find a way to look through either the lens at the aperture plate area or through the aperture plate area at the lens.

When you hold a piece of white paper at the aperture where the film would go and look through the lens, the paper should look white if there is no internal 85 filter (you might need a flashlight). If there is an internal filter in place, the paper of course will look orange. If it's easier to look through the back of the aperture plate with a dental mirror and see what's cooking with the lens, you can come to the same conclusions. It's ten times easier if the lens can be taken off the camera, but most times this is not the case.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bernie


Hey Bernie-

Great call- I'll try that tonight.
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#4 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 05:02 PM

Another test is keep the autoexposure meter on and as you remove the 85 filter via the filter key the f-stop number should increase about 2/3's of one f-stop. It's very important to not accidentally move the camera or change lighting conditions at the moment you change from filtered to non-filtered. Also, make sure the camera's f-stop is not completely open or closed as that can mess with the test results a bit.
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#5 Andrew Means

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 06:35 PM

Ah, good idea as well!
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#6 Andrew Means

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 08:04 PM

Hi, Andrew,

This is going to sound complicated, but it's worth a try. What you really want to try to see is what the film sees (not what the viewfinder sees--you won't see any change here). That means you have to find a way to look through either the lens at the aperture plate area or through the aperture plate area at the lens.

When you hold a piece of white paper at the aperture where the film would go and look through the lens, the paper should look white if there is no internal 85 filter (you might need a flashlight). If there is an internal filter in place, the paper of course will look orange. If it's easier to look through the back of the aperture plate with a dental mirror and see what's cooking with the lens, you can come to the same conclusions. It's ten times easier if the lens can be taken off the camera, but most times this is not the case.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bernie


It's totally working- I tried what you said and I could totally see the filter going in and out. Awesome!

So the question is- why is my film coming back rather blue? Processing?
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#7 Bernie O'Doherty

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 08:12 PM

Hi Andrew,

Could be old film. Could have been blasted with x-rays too often. Could be balanced for indoor use or could be the processing. Most times you've got to tell the labs whether it's indoor or outdoor film and whether or not you changed the balance with filters.

I'm glad the filter trick worked out and hope you get to the bottom of this!

Cheers,
Bernie
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#8 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 10:12 PM

You'll still want to verify that the auto exposure meter is actually shifting a full 2/3 of one stop when activated. It's possible that the filter has faded over time and one way to verify it's still providing full color compensation is to verify that the exposure meter actually shifts 2/3 of one stop when inserted.

I suppose it's possible that the filter has faded but has become gummed up so it may fool the meter into opening up 2/3's of a stop while not actually providing much color compensation, but first things first, if the meter does not move a full 2/3's of a stop, then the internal color filters has presumeably faded from when it was first installed 25-30 years ago.
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#9 Andrew Means

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 11:30 PM

Hi Andrew,

Could be old film. Could have been blasted with x-rays too often. Could be balanced for indoor use or could be the processing. Most times you've got to tell the labs whether it's indoor or outdoor film and whether or not you changed the balance with filters.

I'm glad the filter trick worked out and hope you get to the bottom of this!

Cheers,
Bernie


Film was new, and it was K64, so it was balanced for indoor use, but I'm almost positive that the filter was in place. I'll check to see how they processed it...
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#10 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 02:51 AM

So my first roll of super8 came back rather blue- and as we hadn't displaced the built-in daylight filter, I thought that it could be that my daylight filter wasn't in place/working.

I don't have the key to displace the filter, but looking at the slot I was able to see the little tab that the key displaces. When I pushed it down with a kitchen knife it moved smoothly and easily, and I could hear some operation occuring inside the camera, but I couldn't see any change in the viewfinder. Should I be able to see a change?

What do you guys think?


How was your transfer done? It's possible that the transfer camera was blue dominant. Plus, was the video camera kind of contrasty?
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#11 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 02:31 PM

So the question is- why is my film coming back rather blue? Processing?


What time of day did you shoot? What were the cloud conditions? The 85 filter correcting tungsten to daylight is based on a generalized value and assumes the daylight is 5600K. As the sun goes down the colour temperature goes up (more blue). It will be more blue in the shade. It's more blue in the winter. (Location on the planet is probably important, but I don't know the details of that.)

In other words, maybe you were shooting at a very blue time on a very blue day and the filter could never correct the colour enough. Additional 85 filters to attach to outside of lens are called for.

Also, in general, you are better off to get an 85B rather than use the built in 85A. It's more orange and, if in good condition, is bound to be better than the built-in plastic. Any small flaw on the small internal filter will result in lower image quality.

Rick

Edited by Rick Palidwor, 18 September 2006 - 02:32 PM.

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#12 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:34 PM

What time of day did you shoot? What were the cloud conditions? The 85 filter correcting tungsten to daylight is based on a generalized value and assumes the daylight is 5600K. As the sun goes down the colour temperature goes up (more blue). It will be more blue in the shade. It's more blue in the winter. (Location on the planet is probably important, but I don't know the details of that.)

In other words, maybe you were shooting at a very blue time on a very blue day and the filter could never correct the colour enough. Additional 85 filters to attach to outside of lens are called for.

Also, in general, you are better off to get an 85B rather than use the built in 85A. It's more orange and, if in good condition, is bound to be better than the built-in plastic. Any small flaw on the small internal filter will result in lower image quality.

Rick



Either this is a geographical thing or you meant to say...."Throughout the day, the color of light ranges from around 3200 Kelvin at sunrise or sunset, to around 5500K at mid-day when the sun is overhead. When the sky is overcast or you are in the shade, the color becomes bluer, going to 9000K or above." (just google a phrase from the quotes above to find the link)
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Broadcast Solutions Inc

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FJS International, LLC

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Tai Audio

Abel Cine

Opal

The Slider

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

rebotnix Technologies

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks