Jump to content


Photo

I've had an idea


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:19 PM

I was wondering, if you shot on DS8 film and didn't slit it in processing and just widened the gate horizontally, could that be used as a Anamorphic Super 8 ?
  • 0

#2 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:30 PM

What !!!! do you know what Anamorphic is ? John Holland.
  • 0

#3 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:48 PM

Anamorphic is Super Widescreen, like Todd-AO, isn't it ?
What I mean is, using DS8 like an Ultrawide format, doubling the width of the gate, and shooting on the left and right frames together to make one superwide frame, and processing like 16mm.
  • 0

#4 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:52 PM

Anamorphic has to do with the optics - it means the image is squeezed horizontally by the lens, and the image is put on the film in a shape close to a square. When the image is projected, it goes through another anamorphic lens which de-sqeezes it to achieve the 2.35:1 aspect ratio from a square image.

I think 8mm has gotten as wide as it can with super duper 8, which I believe widens the gate in both directions to capture image on the edge of the film as well as the sprocket side of the film. If you're talking about making the actual film wider, you might as well go to 16mm.
  • 0

#5 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:52 PM

http://www.geocities...ration-2x8s.gif

Just record on both frames with a widened DS8 gate or squashed 16mm gate, and don't slit down the middle in processing.
  • 0

#6 Nathan Milford

Nathan Milford
  • Sustaining Members
  • 692 posts
  • Director
  • New York, NY

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:54 PM

If you shot DS8 all the way across, you'd have 16mm. >8)
  • 0

#7 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

Not if you bridge the gap between the two frames, you just get very wide Super 8.
  • 0

#8 Jan Weis

Jan Weis
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 158 posts
  • Student
  • Uppsala, Sweden

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:04 PM

It cant be done, the lens wouldnt cover the whole area on the film.
  • 0

#9 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:07 PM

How about using a 16mm camera ?
  • 0

#10 Jan Weis

Jan Weis
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 158 posts
  • Student
  • Uppsala, Sweden

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:10 PM

How about using a 16mm camera ?



the perforations on a 16mm film or not the same as on a super 8 film. The film will jam in the camera imediatly.

Edited by Jan Weis, 20 September 2006 - 01:11 PM.

  • 0

#11 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:16 PM

Anamorphic is Super Widescreen, like Todd-AO, isn't it ?


Anamorphic is a 35mm format, Todd-AO is a 70mm format, so I think that means 2.21:1 with the soundtrack, slightly but negligibly less wide than anamorphic's 2.35:1.

How about using a 16mm camera with 16mm film? I think that was the spirit of the question posed. Makes sense; why spend all that time trying to make the 8mm image wider when there already exists another format which will do the job.
  • 0

#12 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:17 PM

I was wondering, if you shot on DS8 film and didn't slit it in processing and just widened the gate horizontally, could that be used as a Anamorphic Super 8 ?

Yes, anamorphic implies the use of a lens on the camera that compresses the horizontal direction of the image. Anamorphic lenses have been used in Super-8, the projector requires a lens that stretches the image back out.

What your proposing is sort of one part Super-16 and one part Technovision (TVN). TVN is the widescreen format that was used on the spaghetti westerns like Sergio Leone's "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly". TVN uses a modified 35mm camera that only pulls down 2 perforations instead of the normal 4.

It would take a pretty brave person to do it, but there probably are old DS8 cameras that the gate could be filed out wider. You would run into all the issues involved with Super-16 conversions such as the lens not covering the entire frame, having to recenter the lens, modification of the viewfinder system, etc. I would only try it on a camera with a C lens mount, that way you could use a lens from a 16mm camera - with recentering that would guarantee the lens would cover your widescreen frame.

And you'll run into a post problem with transferring to video, you'd have to find a lab that had a telecine or scanner that could handle 8mm perforations but while transferring a image possibly as wide as a full standard 16mm image. I don't think you'd ever successfully modify a 16mm projector to run your film - unless you're lucky enough to have a dad or uncle who is a master machinist. :)

Try it - but I would use a VERY cheap camera to experiment on! :D

A further thought: If you were okay with the thought of less than a full 16mm width between the sprocket holes, a 16mm C mount lens would cover about a 50% wider image without recentering the lens. You'd only file out the gate halfway to the where the sprocket holes are on the "back" side of the DS8 roll. The frame center would be off from viewfinder center, and you wouldn't see your full frame, but cheap Super-16 conversions often have screwy viewfinder images also. I leave it to you to look up the dimensions for S8, DS8, and standard 16mm gates to see what the possibilities are. Panavision's site has 16mm information and I think I've run into a bunch of frame and gate size information on Wikipedia.
  • 0

#13 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:23 PM

Finally, someone understands what I'm talking about, how about a K3 to experiment on, just squash the gate, and get some Super 8 spools to put in the camera.
  • 0

#14 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:37 PM

Finally, someone understands what I'm talking about, how about a K3 to experiment on, just squash the gate, and get some Super 8 spools to put in the camera.

The sprocket hole pitch is different for DS8, a 16mm camera pulls down roughly twice as much film per frame, you'll have to hack a DS8 camera.

One word of advice: When you get a wild hair idea (like DOC in the "Back to the Future" series) - look around on websites for as much technical information as possible while chewing on the idea. Doing that will both correct bad ideas, encourage good ideas, and give Serendipity a chance to strike.

Here's my wild hair idea on the thought: Assuming one has that Master Machinist close relative, manufacture DS8 sprockets for a K3 and modify the claw mechanism to fit DS8 sprocket holes and pull down half as much film per frame. That would create a Technovision 16mm camera.
  • 0

#15 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:41 PM

I think I'll shelve the idea for a while, if anyone wants to try, be my guest.

:D
  • 0

#16 Robert Hughes

Robert Hughes
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 873 posts
  • Sound Department
  • Minneapolis

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:41 PM

What you CAN do is create a widescreen half-frame 16mm format similar to 2 perf 35mm, by masking the bottom half of the gate, turning over the roll (as in Regular 8) and running the film through again to expose the remaining half frame. In telecine (or projection) you show only the half frame you need, and you get a wide-screen image the height of Super 8 and the width of 16 (or Super 16, depending on the gate). Kodak used to make the Cine Special camera which incorporated similar gate masks back in the 40's.
  • 0

#17 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:43 PM

That is EXACTLY what I mean, image height of Super 8, width of 16mm or Super 16.
  • 0

#18 Glenn Brady

Glenn Brady
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Other

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:45 PM

This modification has already been done by Ruedi Muster. Martin Baumgarten wrote the following about this Super 8 Breitwand format and other related formats some time ago. I excerpt from his very interesting article here:

Some other specialized WIDESCREEN formats flirting with 8mm were Span 8mm and Span 16mm, and later Span DS8. The Span formats made use the entire width of the Double 8mm or Double Super 8mm or 16mm film width. The 8mm and DS8mm formats have a film frame that is double-frame width. These have to be projected on specially modified 16mm projectors since the film remains in its 16mm width.....only having and using either the Regular 8mm or DS8mm perforations. In Span 16....the normal double perforated 16mm film is used....however the cameras are masked and modified to yield an image that runs nearly the full width of the 16mm film.....using the space between the sprocket holes...thus the frame height is smaller than a conventional 16mm frame...but much wider. There are some dedicated users today still using some of these formats...and Muster Film & Television Inc. in Switzerland have been advocating the use of the Span DS8mm format for years. It could very well make use of magnetic and optical sound as well as yield a WIDESCREEN non-anamorphic format, and the potential is phenomenal. However...since none of these are industry accepted standards...and any processing, printing and releasing services are minimal to non-existent.....their use is limited to those few enthusiasts that love these formats. I would say, safely here...that their use is even smaller than those that film in the 9.5mm format, which is another story for another time and discussion thread.

One last item here......Muster Film & Television Inc in Switzerland have also advocated a new Super 8mm format which they call Super 8-B. The B stands for the word Breitwand, or WIDESCREEN in English. This format is filmed with specially modified BOLEX Double Super 8mm cameras in which the area normally used for the main magnetic or optical sound track is an expanded image area.....similar to that of the Super 16mm format. The new aspect ratio would allow minimal loss of image area upon optical enlargement to 16mm and 35mm, and would match closely the frame aspect ratio of Super 16mm. Use is highly limited to those few experimenters interested in trying it out, and it does offer more feasible possibilities to those wishing to work with DS8mm, however...with a format whereby less image area loss exits upon enlargement to another larger and professional release format.
  • 0

#19 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:46 PM

I think I'll shelve the idea for a while, if anyone wants to try, be my guest.

:D

Don't give up - The worst you'll do is ruin a cheap camera.
  • 0

#20 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:49 PM

I simply don't have the technical expertise.
  • 0


Broadcast Solutions Inc

Paralinx LLC

Opal

CineTape

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

CineLab

Metropolis Post

FJS International, LLC

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

The Slider

Wooden Camera

CineTape

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

Opal

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets