I've had an idea
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:19 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:30 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:48 PM
What I mean is, using DS8 like an Ultrawide format, doubling the width of the gate, and shooting on the left and right frames together to make one superwide frame, and processing like 16mm.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:52 PM
I think 8mm has gotten as wide as it can with super duper 8, which I believe widens the gate in both directions to capture image on the edge of the film as well as the sprocket side of the film. If you're talking about making the actual film wider, you might as well go to 16mm.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:54 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:59 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:04 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:10 PM
How about using a 16mm camera ?
the perforations on a 16mm film or not the same as on a super 8 film. The film will jam in the camera imediatly.
Edited by Jan Weis, 20 September 2006 - 01:11 PM.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:16 PM
Anamorphic is Super Widescreen, like Todd-AO, isn't it ?
Anamorphic is a 35mm format, Todd-AO is a 70mm format, so I think that means 2.21:1 with the soundtrack, slightly but negligibly less wide than anamorphic's 2.35:1.
How about using a 16mm camera with 16mm film? I think that was the spirit of the question posed. Makes sense; why spend all that time trying to make the 8mm image wider when there already exists another format which will do the job.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:17 PM
Yes, anamorphic implies the use of a lens on the camera that compresses the horizontal direction of the image. Anamorphic lenses have been used in Super-8, the projector requires a lens that stretches the image back out.
I was wondering, if you shot on DS8 film and didn't slit it in processing and just widened the gate horizontally, could that be used as a Anamorphic Super 8 ?
What your proposing is sort of one part Super-16 and one part Technovision (TVN). TVN is the widescreen format that was used on the spaghetti westerns like Sergio Leone's "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly". TVN uses a modified 35mm camera that only pulls down 2 perforations instead of the normal 4.
It would take a pretty brave person to do it, but there probably are old DS8 cameras that the gate could be filed out wider. You would run into all the issues involved with Super-16 conversions such as the lens not covering the entire frame, having to recenter the lens, modification of the viewfinder system, etc. I would only try it on a camera with a C lens mount, that way you could use a lens from a 16mm camera - with recentering that would guarantee the lens would cover your widescreen frame.
And you'll run into a post problem with transferring to video, you'd have to find a lab that had a telecine or scanner that could handle 8mm perforations but while transferring a image possibly as wide as a full standard 16mm image. I don't think you'd ever successfully modify a 16mm projector to run your film - unless you're lucky enough to have a dad or uncle who is a master machinist.
Try it - but I would use a VERY cheap camera to experiment on!
A further thought: If you were okay with the thought of less than a full 16mm width between the sprocket holes, a 16mm C mount lens would cover about a 50% wider image without recentering the lens. You'd only file out the gate halfway to the where the sprocket holes are on the "back" side of the DS8 roll. The frame center would be off from viewfinder center, and you wouldn't see your full frame, but cheap Super-16 conversions often have screwy viewfinder images also. I leave it to you to look up the dimensions for S8, DS8, and standard 16mm gates to see what the possibilities are. Panavision's site has 16mm information and I think I've run into a bunch of frame and gate size information on Wikipedia.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:23 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:37 PM
The sprocket hole pitch is different for DS8, a 16mm camera pulls down roughly twice as much film per frame, you'll have to hack a DS8 camera.
Finally, someone understands what I'm talking about, how about a K3 to experiment on, just squash the gate, and get some Super 8 spools to put in the camera.
One word of advice: When you get a wild hair idea (like DOC in the "Back to the Future" series) - look around on websites for as much technical information as possible while chewing on the idea. Doing that will both correct bad ideas, encourage good ideas, and give Serendipity a chance to strike.
Here's my wild hair idea on the thought: Assuming one has that Master Machinist close relative, manufacture DS8 sprockets for a K3 and modify the claw mechanism to fit DS8 sprocket holes and pull down half as much film per frame. That would create a Technovision 16mm camera.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:41 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:41 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:43 PM
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:45 PM
Some other specialized WIDESCREEN formats flirting with 8mm were Span 8mm and Span 16mm, and later Span DS8. The Span formats made use the entire width of the Double 8mm or Double Super 8mm or 16mm film width. The 8mm and DS8mm formats have a film frame that is double-frame width. These have to be projected on specially modified 16mm projectors since the film remains in its 16mm width.....only having and using either the Regular 8mm or DS8mm perforations. In Span 16....the normal double perforated 16mm film is used....however the cameras are masked and modified to yield an image that runs nearly the full width of the 16mm film.....using the space between the sprocket holes...thus the frame height is smaller than a conventional 16mm frame...but much wider. There are some dedicated users today still using some of these formats...and Muster Film & Television Inc. in Switzerland have been advocating the use of the Span DS8mm format for years. It could very well make use of magnetic and optical sound as well as yield a WIDESCREEN non-anamorphic format, and the potential is phenomenal. However...since none of these are industry accepted standards...and any processing, printing and releasing services are minimal to non-existent.....their use is limited to those few enthusiasts that love these formats. I would say, safely here...that their use is even smaller than those that film in the 9.5mm format, which is another story for another time and discussion thread.
One last item here......Muster Film & Television Inc in Switzerland have also advocated a new Super 8mm format which they call Super 8-B. The B stands for the word Breitwand, or WIDESCREEN in English. This format is filmed with specially modified BOLEX Double Super 8mm cameras in which the area normally used for the main magnetic or optical sound track is an expanded image area.....similar to that of the Super 16mm format. The new aspect ratio would allow minimal loss of image area upon optical enlargement to 16mm and 35mm, and would match closely the frame aspect ratio of Super 16mm. Use is highly limited to those few experimenters interested in trying it out, and it does offer more feasible possibilities to those wishing to work with DS8mm, however...with a format whereby less image area loss exits upon enlargement to another larger and professional release format.
Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:46 PM
Don't give up - The worst you'll do is ruin a cheap camera.
I think I'll shelve the idea for a while, if anyone wants to try, be my guest.