Jump to content


Photo

Sync Sound and 18FPS


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 dasonras

dasonras

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 20 September 2006 - 02:20 PM

I am a student, so my budget it limited.

My film is intended to be 30 minutes in the final cut. I am purchasing an 90 minutes of film vision2 200T.

This is a full musical with lip synching.

Now, my question is, would i be able to shoot 18fps to save on filmstock and in post speed to 24fps? Is there any resolution loss or strobing when changing this frame rate? Also, will I have any issues with syncing my prerecorded "sync sesitive" sound track in post?

I am working with Avid Xpress Pro, if that matters.

Also, when my video is transferred to digital tape, will this be recorded onto the tape as 29.9 fps?
  • 0

#2 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 20 September 2006 - 03:31 PM

Wow, a musical, what's it about ?

:D :D :D :D :D
  • 0

#3 Matthew W. Phillips

Matthew W. Phillips
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1792 posts
  • Other

Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:23 PM

I am a student, so my budget it limited.

My film is intended to be 30 minutes in the final cut. I am purchasing an 90 minutes of film vision2 200T.

This is a full musical with lip synching.

Now, my question is, would i be able to shoot 18fps to save on filmstock and in post speed to 24fps? Is there any resolution loss or strobing when changing this frame rate? Also, will I have any issues with syncing my prerecorded "sync sesitive" sound track in post?

I am working with Avid Xpress Pro, if that matters.

Also, when my video is transferred to digital tape, will this be recorded onto the tape as 29.9 fps?


If you film at 18fps and change it to 24fps in post, it is going to be like undercranking and the footage will sped up looking. Only way to avoid this is to have it telecined at 18fps but most houses will charge more for 18fps so you are offsetting your film savings. I think its better to film at 24fps because then its much easier to sync and your costs are upfront.
  • 0

#4 dasonras

dasonras

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 20 September 2006 - 11:10 PM

If you film at 18fps and change it to 24fps in post, it is going to be like undercranking and the footage will sped up looking. Only way to avoid this is to have it telecined at 18fps but most houses will charge more for 18fps so you are offsetting your film savings. I think its better to film at 24fps because then its much easier to sync and your costs are upfront.


That makes sense.

I ran into some issues last year. I shot 24fps. The house transferred to minidv, and when i captured it in avid i edited in a 24p timeline. However, i had a bunch of interlacing problems and such (i was able to fix it), but could have saved some headaches; i later found out that the house recorded onto minidv at 29.9 fps.


I process and telecine at my nearest house, CINELAB in Fall River, MA. They charge $15.00 per neg cart process and $00.25 per foot for telecine. How do theses prices sound? Reasonable?


The film is going to be a 30 minute straight rock opera that includes 6 songs. Basically one location and no more than 5 actors. It's been a huge debate whether to shoot super 8 film or DVX100 minidv. We shot a test music video three months ago to test the quality of super 8. To be honest, we were in love with the color depth and grain of super 8. It has a quality that is unmatched to any digital emulation.

Another question... I have three super 8 cameras. All of them you set the diopter the same way; rather easy. However, i have a new super 8, Beaulieu 1008, and it has a different method to set the diopter that i am not familiar with. It is a color-like split beam sort of setup. I really don't know how this works. Any thoughts on this camera? I've never shot with it before. The only reason i got it because i found that it was a very very quiet camera.
  • 0

#5 Chris Gravat

Chris Gravat
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Student

Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:03 AM

You are going to need to shoot at 24 fps for sync sound. If you do not have a crystal motor on your camera then you should keep your takes to max of like 25 secs maybe even 20. After that sync will drift.

As far as the 29.97 footage, anytime your film goes through an SD NTSC transfer its going to be 29.97. All the NLE's have an option to edit at 29.97. But if you are dead set to edit at 24p I would look into removing the pulldown from the 29.97 footage or just do an HD transfer through bonolabs and edit in HD. Definitely shoot at 24fps though.

Tobin makes a speed checker if you need to see exactly where your dial needs to be for 24fps.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL
  • 0

#6 dasonras

dasonras

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 21 September 2006 - 10:24 AM

You are going to need to shoot at 24 fps for sync sound. If you do not have a crystal motor on your camera then you should keep your takes to max of like 25 secs maybe even 20. After that sync will drift.

As far as the 29.97 footage, anytime your film goes through an SD NTSC transfer its going to be 29.97. All the NLE's have an option to edit at 29.97. But if you are dead set to edit at 24p I would look into removing the pulldown from the 29.97 footage or just do an HD transfer through bonolabs and edit in HD. Definitely shoot at 24fps though.

Tobin makes a speed checker if you need to see exactly where your dial needs to be for 24fps.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL


I wasn't aware of the sync drift being an issue. The longest take we took was 1 minute and it was a wide master shot. The audio synched up fine in post. Is this issue dependent on the camera used? We shot on Canon 1014.

I have however, dealt with this issue when shooting with the Krasnagorsk-3 16mm camera. The fps knob had the markings slightly nudged too far right and the film seemed like it recorded faster than 24fps.
  • 0

#7 Douglas Hunter

Douglas Hunter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 356 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 21 September 2006 - 11:49 AM

The best way to do your project is to shoot at 24 fps with a camera that has crystal control.

Then telecine to digi beta at 29.97 frame rate.

if you are finishung to video edite in 29.97, there is no reason to edit in a 24 frame environment for a SD video finish.


Can you do it differently, yes you can but each vairation adds time or expense to your post production. For example if you shoot some long takes on non-true speed quipment, your sound and picture will drift. These days it is possible to sync almost anything with enough time and effort, but one has to ask what makes more sense, paying a few hundred more in production to rent a crystal camera or to potentially add days to the post process to sync the footage. The choice is yours, you just need to know the pros and cons of the different methods and go with what works for you.
  • 0

#8 dasonras

dasonras

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:21 PM

The best way to do your project is to shoot at 24 fps with a camera that has crystal control.

Then telecine to digi beta at 29.97 frame rate.

if you are finishung to video edite in 29.97, there is no reason to edit in a 24 frame environment for a SD video finish.
Can you do it differently, yes you can but each vairation adds time or expense to your post production. For example if you shoot some long takes on non-true speed quipment, your sound and picture will drift. These days it is possible to sync almost anything with enough time and effort, but one has to ask what makes more sense, paying a few hundred more in production to rent a crystal camera or to potentially add days to the post process to sync the footage. The choice is yours, you just need to know the pros and cons of the different methods and go with what works for you.



Well, we are shooting for one week straight, so a rental budget doesn't seem to fit in. Our budget is going to be restricted to filmstock and processing.

The editing phase estimated time is 3 months since we need to foley all sound and even incorporate ADR.
  • 0

#9 Chris Gravat

Chris Gravat
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Student

Posted 21 September 2006 - 05:00 PM

The editing phase estimated time is 3 months since we need to foley all sound and even incorporate ADR.
[/quote]


If you are pinching pennies you should think about limiting or even better eliminating the foley and ADR and try to get everything during production. I guess this will only really matter if you are having to rent the quipment and facilities to do your ADR and foley. If you are doing it yourself I guess it wont really matter if you are willing to devote the time and can get the talent to come back for the ADR.

It has been my personal experience especially on low budget shoots to try to capture all of my audio during production. It makes things significantly cheaper and in the big scheme of things doesn't take up that much extra time on set to get some wild lines, room tone or soundfx. Especially if you are using a non-linear recorder it's not like you will be wasting tape or anything. Just my thoughts on the situation.

- Chris Gravat
Orlando, FL
  • 0

#10 Matthew W. Phillips

Matthew W. Phillips
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1792 posts
  • Other

Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:24 PM

I wasn't aware of the sync drift being an issue. The longest take we took was 1 minute and it was a wide master shot. The audio synched up fine in post. Is this issue dependent on the camera used? We shot on Canon 1014.


See, I go back and forth all the time with people who talk about the whole crystal sync vs no-crystal sync and I personally am in the camp of feeling that crystal sync isnt necessary on 24fps Super 8 cameras. I also usually do rather short takes so that may be part of it. I think you could get away with doing 1 minute takes and still syncing up in post. I dont know if I would roll out the whole reel on 1 take and expect it to sync without a little pain though.

Many people who mention the need for crystal sync on Super 8 @24fps, I often wonder what camera they use or if they have ever actually tried syncing with it or just assume its like hand cranked 16mm. Im not saying some havent had legitimate issues with it, but it seems like many people just say it because its cliche to do so. I will be a believer in syncing with Super 8 until I have a legitimate issue with it.
  • 0


Paralinx LLC

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Glidecam

Tai Audio

CineLab

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

The Slider

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

Opal

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

Metropolis Post

Ritter Battery

CineTape

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

FJS International, LLC

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

The Slider

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Opal

Glidecam

CineLab

Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies