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No timecode burn in!!!!


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#1 dr_gonzo

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 01:25 PM

So I got my dailies back from the lab...I had footage xfered to digi beta and then dubbed to mini dv. I was gonna edit from the dv copies and then online...only to find that I didnt get a timecode burn in my mini dv copies! I wasnt able to watch the digi beta copies so I dunno if the timecode is burned in to those at least.

So if the lab refuses to fix it and re-do everything and burn my timecode for free what other options do i have?

Could I rent a digi beta deck and capture from my high res copies is FCP and then be able to forgoe having to online at the end??

Any help would be much appreciated!
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#2 Michael Most

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 08:36 PM

So I got my dailies back from the lab...I had footage xfered to digi beta and then dubbed to mini dv. I was gonna edit from the dv copies and then online...only to find that I didnt get a timecode burn in my mini dv copies! I wasnt able to watch the digi beta copies so I dunno if the timecode is burned in to those at least.

So if the lab refuses to fix it and re-do everything and burn my timecode for free what other options do i have?

Could I rent a digi beta deck and capture from my high res copies is FCP and then be able to forgoe having to online at the end??

Any help would be much appreciated!


Why do you think you need a time code burn-in? And why would you ever want it on your DigiBeta master? And, for that matter, did you ask for a time code window on the DV? If not, why are you blaming the lab?
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#3 ryan_bennett

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 12:44 AM

Better question: Did they charge you? If they didn't I don't think they owe you anything to do it for free, but that's just my opinion. Where you clear on whether you wanted it on the dv or digibeta tape?

Your other option is to just go into your camera or whatever you're playing the DV dub on and have it display the TC and read right off of that. It's not a big deal. If you have data code in the vtr/dv cam you could even make another dub by outputting the data code into another DV or VCR. Now I personally enjoy using TC window burns myself but is your project seriously ruined in the end without having it?
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#4 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 01:21 AM

Better question: Did they charge you? If they didn't I don't think they owe you anything to do it for free, but that's just my opinion. Where you clear on whether you wanted it on the dv or digibeta tape?

Your other option is to just go into your camera or whatever you're playing the DV dub on and have it display the TC and read right off of that. It's not a big deal. If you have data code in the vtr/dv cam you could even make another dub by outputting the data code into another DV or VCR. Now I personally enjoy using TC window burns myself but is your project seriously ruined in the end without having it?


It seems to me that won't help when it comes to reconforming the digibeta later on. My opinion is it's not that big of a deal to rerun the dv dub with a time-code window on it from the digibeta master, unless the lab doesn't own it's own digibeta deck and would have to rent it to make the window burn copy.

IF the mini-dv dub miraculously had the identical time-code as the digibeta (not likely because it requires a higher end mini-dv deck and then it may only perform matching time-code if the mini-dv tape is recorded at DV-CAM speed then yes one could make a mini-dv to window burn dub, but I wouldn't count on it unless the lab specifies that's what they did on your receipt.
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#5 Michael Most

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 10:03 AM

It seems to me that won't help when it comes to reconforming the digibeta later on. My opinion is it's not that big of a deal to rerun the dv dub with a time-code window on it from the digibeta master, unless the lab doesn't own it's own digibeta deck and would have to rent it to make the window burn copy.

IF the mini-dv dub miraculously had the identical time-code as the digibeta (not likely because it requires a higher end mini-dv deck and then it may only perform matching time-code if the mini-dv tape is recorded at DV-CAM speed then yes one could make a mini-dv to window burn dub, but I wouldn't count on it unless the lab specifies that's what they did on your receipt.


Every professional facility I know of uses DVCam machines, with proper time code, to create DV copies of dailies. And if they are making the DigiBeta and DV simultaneously, it has proper time code by definition (or else it wouldn't be able to be controlled from telecine). Every nonlinear computer based editing sotware I know of uses time code, and all but iMovie and possibly some version of Premiere produce EDL's. So explain why it was that the time code window was needed again?
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 11:36 AM

Every professional facility I know of uses DVCam machines, with proper time code, to create DV copies of dailies. And if they are making the DigiBeta and DV simultaneously, it has proper time code by definition (or else it wouldn't be able to be controlled from telecine). Every nonlinear computer based editing sotware I know of uses time code, and all but iMovie and possibly some version of Premiere produce EDL's. So explain why it was that the time code window was needed again?


What you're saying then is every lab uses at the very least a Sony DSR-45 when making a mini-dv dub. OH wait, those won't take time-code in for a mini-dv codec, only for a DV-CAM codec. So you're now talking about using an ultra-high end DVCAM deck to make a mini-dv tape, assuming that on the very ultra high end deck the mini-dv codec will accept external time-code in. It seems like a very expensive service if all one wants is a dv window burn copy, in other words, I doubt that getting a simple window burn dv copy costs the same versus making a dv copy with identical time code as the digi-beta.
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 11:40 AM

What you're saying then is every lab uses at the very least a Sony DSR-45 when making a mini-dv dub.


Hi,

What Mike is saying, ideally both copies are made at the same time from the telecine. There is no Dub as this would cost the facility more money in machine time.

Telecine machines are very expensive, not being able to have the same time code on the MiniDV's would cost far more in down time than the saving from buying a cheaper record deck.

Stephen
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#8 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 12:03 PM

When we make DVCAM/MiniDV output tapes from telecine transfers, they are made on a DSR-1500 VTR with full timecode/VITC capability.

The VITC is generated by the Aaton Keylink keykode reader.

The burnt-in timecode/aatoncode/keykode is also generated by the Keylink and placed in the black top and bottom part of the letterbox picture (if 16/9).

Actually the DSR1500 is less convenient to work with than a Digital Betacam but many customers ask DV or DVCAM rushes these days.
We prefer to include video TC, film TC if present, Keykode, video reel number in the visible information on the picture and do not want to rely on accurate EDLs supplied by the customer for negative cutting. These burnt-in codes are used as a double check on the data generated from the supplied EDL.

This procedure has saved many films. Right now I am handling a PAL video where the customers swears it is 25fps but I see a repeat frame every second. This would be difficult to see if no TC/keykode is burnt-in unless there is some movement in the shots.

You only cut a negative once. Has to be right the first time.
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#9 Michael Most

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 06:15 PM

When we make DVCAM/MiniDV output tapes from telecine transfers, they are made on a DSR-1500 VTR with full timecode/VITC capability.


Exactly what I was trying to point out.

You only cut a negative once. Has to be right the first time.


The original post didn't mention anything about negative cutting, or even a retransfer. It only mentioned a DV tape and a Digital Betacam tape. The poster was talking about a simple offline/online finishing flow. If it were more than that, I would likely have given different advice. Because this list involves those who have a lot of professional experience as well as those who have very little, a lot of things are said and assumed by those who don't have the experience to guide them one way or another. Myth has a way of becoming fact. Needing a time code window in order to do an offline/online approach, when the tapes already have matching time code, is a myth. As is the assumption that transfer facilities somehow have some standard list of transfer specs that they use on every job, and that it isn't the client's responsibility to tell them exactly what they need, or at least to ask questions to determine that. In fact, the vast majority of episodic television programs only use "flashed" windows at each edit (they usually transfer print takes only), and even then only to confirm that the time code on the log is accurate. It would be a much nicer world if everyone used the same approaches, and prepared their material in the same way. They don't. And equally as unfortunate is that they all seem to think their way is the "standard."
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#10 Chris Burke

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:16 PM

So I got my dailies back from the lab...I had footage xfered to digi beta and then dubbed to mini dv. I was gonna edit from the dv copies and then online...only to find that I didnt get a timecode burn in my mini dv copies! I wasnt able to watch the digi beta copies so I dunno if the timecode is burned in to those at least.

So if the lab refuses to fix it and re-do everything and burn my timecode for free what other options do i have?

Could I rent a digi beta deck and capture from my high res copies is FCP and then be able to forgoe having to online at the end??

Any help would be much appreciated!



So the thing to do is ask the lab to re dub the digi beta tapes to DV for you. If they can not or won't, you can always rent a Sony J30 deck. It will play back the digi beta tapes and you can ingest them via the firewire port. The files you import will be dv and will have the exact same timecode that is on the digi beta tape. From there you are all set, you can do your offline and generate an EDL from that to do an online with the digi beta. Good luck.

Chris
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#11 Dan Goulder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:48 PM

I would recommend, if possible, having your offline files dubbed to DVCam instead of mini-dv, as both Digibeta and DVCam are frame locked to time code, whereas mini-dv is not. An EDL generated from mini-dv files can potentially be off by a frame here and there, which is why many post houses recommend against using this format in that capacity. (I believe this issue pertains mainly to NTSC video.)
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#12 Douglas Hunter

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 04:26 PM

Folks are offering so much advice but its not exactly clear what the OP is doing or attempting to do. Its not clear why he wanted a window burn in the first place. Do we know that he realy needs one?
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#13 Dan Goulder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 05:13 PM

Folks are offering so much advice but its not exactly clear what the OP is doing or attempting to do. Its not clear why he wanted a window burn in the first place. Do we know that he realy needs one?

A window burn is a nice convenience for fine tuning cue and cut points while keeping your eye on the video monitor. It helps to have an exact visual frame reference right on the screen. Of course, the actual EDL is compiled independently of the burn in.
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