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#1 Christopher Dillon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 02:30 PM

I recently found my way to the DVXuser.com based on a link regarding a claim of a break in at Red, and, after three incredibly reasonable comments on that site, found myself facing this statement after trying to log in:

You have been banned for the following reason:
None
Date the ban will be lifted: Never.

Upon reading Mr. Jannard's statement and offer of a reward, I immediately thought of the possibility that this could be some kind of viral marketing scheme. I have no proof, but I live in a world where companies do all sorts of things of this nature, and worse. A few years ago, IBM hired an ad agency who hired someone and they hired someone, etc, to stencil-paint little penguins all over San Francisco to get people talking, "what is it?", "have you seen the penguins", etc. Well, it did get people talking and it got the police involved and it was traced to IBM and they had to pay a fine of $100,000 dollars. If anyone can think of a bigger and more "serious" and more legitimate (at least in the general public's eyes) company than Big Blue, let me know. Proof:

http://www.sfgate.co...?...001&sc=1000

http://www.urbanblig...ner20051230.htm

And the worse tactics being something like what we are hearing about now with HP bugging their own people and seeking to plant spies at "enemy" newspapers, etc:

http://www.abcnews.g...i...8715&page=1

and, worst of all, allegations against Coca Cola (to put my allegations against Big Red in perspective):

http://www.cokewatch...nr_020417_1.htm

So I signed up to the forum and wrote my thoughts. I should say that I really hadn't been to that forum before, so I had no idea of the deeply obsequious nature of that crowd. I wish I could find their enthusiasm and support for Red inspiring, but I have to say that, after the responses, threats and name calling, it is anything but. I have followed this company and the hype around it for sometime, though not obsessively, and I am aware that many others following it have been less than supportive of the grand claims. For my part, I have not nor even now do I want them to fail in their goals. I have shelves full of equipment that, other than a beloved Rollieflex that is as close to friend as equipment could ever be, I would replace if a tool came along that I truly believed would better help me communicate. I will say that there is an air of arrogance in their marketing, and I have always kept an eye on a company that seemed more adept at marketing and creating intriguing industrial design of the camera shell than delivering the promised revolution. So my initial comment ignited a torrent of responses that were only impressive in their immaturity, insecurity and ignorance. One thing I am coming to understand is that most of these people have paid $1000 to reserve a camera and have been in communication with Red via forums and have developed a no less than emotional attachment to what they see as "their" baby. I would be very suprised if marketing companies and university departments aren't studying this phenomenon furiously as I type. I would clip and paste my three comments but I can't get back into their digital daisy chain to do so, so you will have to go their and read and judge for yourself. My second comment on Dvxuser was in response to company head, Jim Jannard's, direct comment to me that called me an a**hole for even doubting him. This guy clearly takes forums seriously enough in the marketing and development of his product to be reading and posting very frequently and especially at a time that I would think would have him in emergency response mode offline. Yes, I understand that it would be human nature to be angry and upset if this was all true and perhaps even be looking for comfort from his fans, which he has received in droves. I responded to his name calling by responding that he should direct his anger at himself for not securing his valuables better and suggesting that he do his forum reading and responding while sitting next to his equiptment which would have them protected 24 hours a day, which was a bit catty, but I had just been called an a**hole, so I felt a bit allowed. My last comment was in response to a Redhead that asked me incredulously if I thought that he should put his camera and files in a bank vault every night and/or have it under armed guard, to which I simply replied, "Yes, obviously. Peace." And now I am banished from The Land of the Red, but hope I will find safe harbor here in the Land of the Living. I do feel a bit naive in thinking that dissent and scepticism were welcome there, but as I have seen what I view as an overall higher level of intelligence and critical thinking on cinematography.com, I hope this long post will be tolerated here. It is not so difficult to scroll past and down, after all, right? And let us all remember, this is the internet, truth is a very illusive thing on here, in fact, it's entirely possible that I am Jim Jannard throwing yet another log onto the Flame War. Believe it or not, I am here as a lover of image capture in all forms from Pixelvision to tomorrow's 70mm-killing digital technologies, but I encourage us all to save our emotional attachments to the neglected lovers sitting across the room rolling their eyes as we type. Peace and love to all my fellow image wranglers.

Edited by Christopher Dillon, 25 September 2006 - 02:34 PM.

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#2 Greg Lowry

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:10 PM

I recently found my way to the DVXuser.com based on a link regarding a claim of a break in at Red, and, after three incredibly reasonable comments on that site, found myself facing this statement after trying to log in:

You have been banned for the following reason:
None
Date the ban will be lifted: Never.


If you think it's "incredibly reasonable" to accuse people of dishonesty without any proof whatsoever, you'll find no peace here.

Edited by Greg Lowry, 25 September 2006 - 03:11 PM.

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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 06:24 PM

Just don't let healthy skepticism cross over into vicious cynicism. I hope RED recovers quickly from this incident, both the break-in... and all the unpleasant speculation surrounding the break-in story. I know gossip and rumor-mongering can be fun for some, but it can also be damaging, so I suggest we all back-off from it.
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#4 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 06:47 PM

Hey great thanks for the internet drama update
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#5 Christopher Dillon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 07:38 PM

Just don't let healthy skepticism cross over into vicious cynicism. I hope RED recovers quickly from this incident, both the break-in... and all the unpleasant speculation surrounding the break-in story. I know gossip and rumor-mongering can be fun for some, but it can also be damaging, so I suggest we all back-off from it.



This isn't about gossip or rumors. I postulated that this purported break in could be a hoax to drum up attention, but ultimately, now I'm more concerned about the behaviour exhibited by the Redheads. I believe that ultimately the Red fanbase is comprised of an unusual amount of individuals with compromised critical abilities that are potentially dangerously insecure. If you are concerned about visciousness, I recommend you bring that up with some folks here and on DVXuser.com that are giggling giddily with censure, who have verbally assaulted, in the most venomously offensive fashion, myself and others rather than let our comments pass unanswered and ignored. The fact that I was removed for my comments exposes the bias of the website when people are allowed to answer unpopular posts with verbal attacks and profanities repeated over and over in all-caps "F*** YOU!" One comment suggested something like "beat them and make them know what it feels like to be a woman"! What facillitor would allow such awful talk? I'm sure many suporters of the Red project are more embarrassed by the rivers of vulgarity and hate flowing through their forums from fellow fans than from my lil comments. You'd think that the Redheads thought the chance of success of this project rested soley on their fanatical support and not on the ingenuity and fortitude of the Red team, who are mostly to blame, not my smart mouth, for the current state of affairs. Corporate sabotage and espionage are shameful, but nothing new and should have been expected and planned for. Nothing I could ever say or do could be more damaging or embarrassing to Red than the behaviour of these fan-atics. The world is going to continue to be filled with indelible images that touch our hearts and minds, with or without this camera, and cameras that are as good as they would ever need to be to TELL A STORY (rather than visually articulate individual blades of grass) are collecting dust on all our shelves as we speak. Peace.
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 08:37 PM

This isn't about gossip or rumors. I postulated that this purported break in could be a hoax


How is "postulating" that this is a "hoax" not a form of gossip and rumor-mongering? It's just fancy wording for making a wild guess of about criminal intent without evidence, which is your right to do so, obviously, but it's not pleasant... so some backlash should only be expected. Being banned for suggesting it is a bit much if it is a controversy that would soon die down on its own, but hey, it's not my forum...

I will agree with you, though, that some of the RED fanbase act a bit like recent converts to a new religion. But I saw similar enthusiasm for the upcoming DVX100, the HVX200, even the CineAlta, etc. and I guess I'm just getting used to the fact that there is a certain percentage of people waiting for the "film-killer" digital camera like it's the Second Coming, while others are ready to pounce on it as if it were the Anti-Christ! The truth tends to lie somewhere in the middle, as always.
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#7 jan von krogh

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:37 PM

The truth tends to lie somewhere in the middle, as always.

daer mr. mullen.

i highly respect your work - and i don´t think less of yours because you are shooting a tv-series right now-.

but in 5-15 years from here, film we be laugable, can we agree on that? or is it 20 years? in your young age... i would still be open to translation...
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#8 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:42 PM

daer mr. mullen.

i highly respect your work - and i don´t think less of yours because you are shooting a tv-series right now-.

but in 5-15 years from here, film we be laugable, can we agree on that? or is it 20 years? in your young age... i would still be open to translation...


You know, just because you are mad about the RED incident, dont go insulting a great man like David. It is really not going to make you any friends here. I admit that I say stupid stuff all the time on here, but David is a level headed guy who is a class act. I only hope to have his level headedness and knowledge when I get older. I think its great that David is doing a show for HBO.

Edited by Matthew W. Phillips, 25 September 2006 - 09:45 PM.

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#9 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:44 PM

David, you're a voice of reason as always.

Graeme
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#10 jan von krogh

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:53 PM

You know, just because you are mad about the RED incident, dont go insulting a great man like David. It is really not going to make you any friends here.

first)
i didnt insult anyone here.
second)
i am very picky with my friend and my employees.

I admit that I say stupid stuff all the time on here, but David is a level headed guy who is a class act. I only hope to have his level headedness and knowledge when I get older. I think its great that David is doing a show for HBO.

yeah. great. what is your next upcoming movie, sir? you seem to be qualified to comment on anything it needs.

let me -in my basic english- put it that way.

you don´t create. correct?

or did i miss something? if not, it would be a blessing if you restrain all the hardworking folks here and would frrequently visit another, maybe the 35mm forum.

p.s. i think a new haircut would make you more relaxed.
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#11 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:57 PM

p.s. i think a new haircut would make you more relaxed.


It shows how a person has no argument whatsoever when they resort to name calling. I did not call you names but rather pointed out how you subtly insult David. I dont care what your opinion of my hair cut or anything else is. If you have such a great life, start commenting on films or cameras or something that has to do with this site. Leave your personal feelings at the door.
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#12 Tomas Koolhaas

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:07 PM

daer mr. mullen.

i highly respect your work - and i don´t think less of yours because you are shooting a tv-series right now-.

but in 5-15 years from here, film we be laugable, can we agree on that? or is it 20 years? in your young age... i would still be open to translation...



..and in the fifties people thought we would be teleporting everywhere by now...my car still seems to work fine though.
Also Jan, I think It's a mistake to personally insult people (like you did mathew) on these forums, for one it is extremely cowardly to be tough on a keyboard when 9 times out of 10 you would be quiete as a mouse face to face, and secondly, unless you know someone, how can you know they dont "Create" anything. I suggest you Loose the high and mighty attitude, I have never heard of you either, but I dont assume you haven't done anything worthwhile because of that. Thirdly, trying to talk down to people while hyperbolically stating your own credentials only makes you seem insecure, or to put it another way "trying too hard".
Cheers.
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#13 jan von krogh

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:22 PM

..and in the fifties people thought we would be teleporting everywhere by now...my car still seems to work fine though.
Also Jan, I think It's a mistake to personally insult people (like you did mathew) on these forums, for one it is extremely cowardly to be tough on a keyboard when 9 times out of 10 you would be quiete as a mouse face to face, and secondly, unless you know someone, how can you know they dont "Create" anything. I suggest you Loose the high and mighty attitude, I have never heard of you either, but I dont assume you haven't done anything worthwhile because of that. Thirdly, trying to talk down to people while hyperbolically stating your own credentials only makes you seem insecure, or to put it another way "trying too hard".
Cheers.


Dear Mr. Koolhaas, with all due respect - i am posting here with my name.

if people like xxx are getting offensive on this once so acclaimed BBoard (which i was lurking for years), i won´t restrain from commenting them, especially if they are going aggressive mode.

i have respect for mr. mullens works - and attitude. i whish i could say so for matthew.

and last but not least - which credentials did i claim here so far? not, that i would have any, but

i suppose you could easily find out that i at least do understand some aspects of the business. by the way, you are from germany? we are shooting with ulrich mühe, katrin sass and natalie brennecke in jan. interesting book, btw.

p.s. mr. koolhaas, do you already have an order for the red nr.1 cam?
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:29 PM

I didn't understand the post well-enough to feel insulted...

If the question was whether I think film will be around in 15 or 20 years, I'm not sure it matters -- I have to work in the real world of today and the near future. For all I know, 20 years ago we'll download virtual reality movies into our brains directly.

But I can probably safely predict that more and more movies will be shot digitally over the next decade. But I also think film will be around in 15 or 20 years even if it is relegated to a smaller and smaller percentage of the moviemaking market.

But I'm not sure why anyone other than investors in Kodak or Sony stay awake thinking about this. Few cinematographers working in the 1930's thought most movies would become color and widescreen within 20 years, but even if they knew that, I'm not sure it would have affected what they had to do in their daily lives with the tools at hand. Telling Willis O'Brien that someday King Kong could be digitally animated would have had no practical value to him as he began his stop motion work. Trying to guess the technical reality of the next two decades has no practical value when you're about to start making a movie next month.

When RED finally comes out, people will start using and it and we'll all quickly learn what it is capable of, just like all the speculation regarding the Genesis was cleared up this year when several features shot with it came out in the theaters.
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#15 jan von krogh

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:49 PM

I didn't understand the post well-enough to feel insulted...


dear mr. mullen, i dind´t want to insult you at all. i have high regards for your work and would be very happy, if i would have more dops or cameraman of your class here in berlin.

i won´t go into detail - simply put: i think (after 4 translations chemical/analogue-> digital) that i might have an opinion about the mechanics of translation.

however its the artist, not the instrument - and a stradivari doesnt make the no-body become a musician.

but i won´t let comments, especially uncalled insulting ones, let through within the given amount of time, until jj really screws up my rental biz. call me a blocking forcefield in that case, if you want so. full of expertise, knowledge and production reality experiences. i have done my homework with lenses, cameras, d/a, grading, workflow, pipelines, vts and inernational (or the lack of) standards and so on and so furth not only recently.

and mr. mullenn, the sceptical attitude which you (for good reason) have been a bandleader for is no excuse for absurd conspiracy-theories. and i do undestand that you have been banned on dvx - as well.

i really look forward to see you work and remain,

sincerly yorus .. yorick von krogh
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:16 PM

and mr. mullenn, the sceptical attitude which you (for good reason) have been a bandleader for is no excuse for absurd conspiracy-theories. and i do undestand that you have been banned on dvx - as well.


No, I haven't been banned from there -- I post sometimes on DVINFO.NET but I don't post on DVXUSER.COM, I've never even registered there so how could I be banned? (Unless I have been banned without ever having made a post in some sort of pre-emptive move!)
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#17 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:19 PM

No, I haven't been banned from there -- I post sometimes on DVINFO.NET but I don't post on DVXUSER.COM, I've never even registered there so how could I be banned? (Unless I have been banned without ever having made a post in some sort of pre-emptive move!)


If David was banned from DVXuser.com, I would then have proof that the founder is crazy.
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#18 Clint Johnson

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:51 PM

Hi Christopher,

I?m guessing that you were vegansoy? There were at least two bannings as a result of this rather uncivil (on both sides) thread. I think that the main problem is that there are a few people at DVXuser who are personal friends of Jim as well as a lot more people who it would appear have conversed online enough with the man to consider him an acquaintance... and when you came in and started attacked the character of the man a good number of those people jumped to a rather over zealous defense.

I think that your posts were rude, confrontational and unconstructive but they didn?t deserve the overblown and caustic response you got from some people... or an outright banning. Some of the people on DVXuser are rather... umm... fond of an unseen product and some of them will be burned getting into one without a good understanding of just what a cinema oriented camera entails. That said, there is a fair bit of constructive criticism on the site and when it is presented in a reasoned manner it is addressed in good form.

I have a reservation for a Red One camera as well as the 18-85mm lens but I?m not a fanatical ?Red Head?. My next project probably won?t be ready to go until early next summer and I would be ecstatic to have a camera with the specification that Red is aiming for. If the Red One doesn?t come through, and I realize that there is a very real possibility of that, I will simply rent another camera or look to purchasing something like a Sony F350 instead (with no illusions that it gets close to film).

And I agree with Matthew that if David had been banned from DVXuser I?d question Jarred?s sanity. David Mullen is a measure voice of reason and experience that any forum on cinematography would be much the better for.



Posted by vegansoy
Another possibility worth considering and one that I'm amazed hasn't been mentioned yet, is that this is a hoax created by Red itself to stir up attention on many websites and increase chatter about the company. It could also provide a cover for technological set-backs they could be experiencing and would keep investors from losing faith in the product or tech team because delays could be seen as not their fault. I realize that many people are excited by this concept and want to support it as an innovative underdog, kinda like that Coppola movie, "Tucker", but, honestly, my bullshit detector is screaming louder than a smoke alarm right now. When the smoke clears, Red may be more well known for marketing innovation than for technical innovation. Peace.

Posted by Jim Jannard
Are you kidding me? Maybe you should come down from Portland and help us clean up the glass. a**ho**.


Posted by vegansoy
Mr. Jannard, Perhaps you should direct your anger and frustration at yourself for not protecting your assets better. In the future, I recommend that you sit beside your valuables while you're reading and contributing to these forums. That should keep them within sight 24 hours a day. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
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#19 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:57 PM

Clint, I was there on DVXuser last night as well and I gotta say, you are only presenting one side of the story. You omit the fact that many of those over zealous "friends" of Jannard were naming company names and saying that Sony, Canon, etc were paying people to break in to RED. It was insulting to me because I feel that any one of those companies has earned their respect and place in this field where I dont feel JJ has earned anything yet. I felt it highly offensive.

I at least give DVinfo credit for telling their users that naming company names would NOT be tolerated. Jarred did no such thing.

Edited by Matthew W. Phillips, 25 September 2006 - 11:59 PM.

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#20 Clint Johnson

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:05 AM

Clint, I was there on DVXuser last night as well and I gotta say, you are only presenting one side of the story. You omit the fact that many of those over zealous "friends" of Jannard were naming company names and saying that Sony, Canon, etc were paying people to break in to RED. It was insulting to me because I feel that any one of those companies has earned their respect and place in this field where I dont feel JJ has earned anything yet. I felt it highly offensive.

I at least give DVinfo credit for telling their users that naming company names would NOT be tolerated. Jarred did no such thing.


Yes, some of them were saying that it was Sony, Canon et al who paid people to break into Red. I find it as offensive to accuse them of this, as accusing Jim of doing it himself. The irony seems to be lost on some people.

I stated more than once that their involvement didn't make a lot of sense and in all probability it was a bunch of amateurs doing it on spec with the hope of selling to one of them. I even suggested that Jim get in touch with the other camera companies because I would expect that they were more likely to pass the information on to him than they were to exploit it.
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