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I don't get it...


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#1 Ash Greyson

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 12:20 AM

I dont get the amount of energy working professionals are putting into talking about this camera... on both sides. I am busy, shooting/editing/etc. every day. I pop on this forum and other forums as often as possible to check out the scene and moreso on other forums, help others with any questions they may have.

There will always be fanboys, the guys who think that somehow a camera can make the gates of Hollywood swing open and that somehow the only thing that has held them back, is their access to technology when in most cases, it is their lack of true talent. IMHO, these are the guys talking up RED that will never even touch the camera. It is just that their dream, is now at least on the radar at $17,500. There are also many professionals who just love bleeding edge tech, they are not fanboys but they are rooting for RED, many have reservations and will be on the front lines of showing the viability of the camera and workflow when released. Good for them I say.

I would expect most professionals to fall into the "wait and see" camp. This is where I am. I am rooting for RED and JJ. I hope they do what they say they plan to, at the price they plan to. It will greatly help my business as I spent more than the price of RED renting Vari/F900/SDX/etc last year. I read the updates, pat JJ and team on the back when appropriate, raise an eyebrow when appropriate, spank a fanboy when appropriate, etc.

What I absolutely do NOT get is the haters.... why even waste the energy? Why be negative? To me, it makes it look like you are insecure about your abilities/talents/etc. If you love film, great, just say that, you dont have to insult new technology or the fans/creators of it. You dont have to be rude, condescending, accusatory, etc. Maybe the haters are guys that need to work more, guys that need to be more relevant... I dont know... but I suggest that if you are reading this and feel like responding negatively that you are wasting your time even being in this forum. You are a Yankee fan, fair enough... quit hanging around the Red Sox dugout...




ash =o)
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:02 AM

I dont get the amount of energy working professionals are putting into talking about this camera... on both sides. I am busy, shooting/editing/etc. every day. I pop on this forum and other forums as often as possible to check out the scene and moreso on other forums, help others with any questions they may have.

There will always be fanboys, the guys who think that somehow a camera can make the gates of Hollywood swing open and that somehow the only thing that has held them back, is their access to technology when in most cases, it is their lack of true talent. IMHO, these are the guys talking up RED that will never even touch the camera. It is just that their dream, is now at least on the radar at $17,500. There are also many professionals who just love bleeding edge tech, they are not fanboys but they are rooting for RED, many have reservations and will be on the front lines of showing the viability of the camera and workflow when released. Good for them I say.

I would expect most professionals to fall into the "wait and see" camp. This is where I am. I am rooting for RED and JJ. I hope they do what they say they plan to, at the price they plan to. It will greatly help my business as I spent more than the price of RED renting Vari/F900/SDX/etc last year. I read the updates, pat JJ and team on the back when appropriate, raise an eyebrow when appropriate, spank a fanboy when appropriate, etc.

What I absolutely do NOT get is the haters.... why even waste the energy? Why be negative? To me, it makes it look like you are insecure about your abilities/talents/etc. If you love film, great, just say that, you dont have to insult new technology or the fans/creators of it. You dont have to be rude, condescending, accusatory, etc. Maybe the haters are guys that need to work more, guys that need to be more relevant... I dont know... but I suggest that if you are reading this and feel like responding negatively that you are wasting your time even being in this forum. You are a Yankee fan, fair enough... quit hanging around the Red Sox dugout...
ash =o)


Hi,

To be honest I don't think there are any haters here. Just working DoP's who would like to see some very basic latitude tests first. Only then can we see if the camera is interesting to us.

Note for Jim, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your sensor. I look forward to hearing what David Stump has to say. Just sorry that you will not let me carry out my own tests, then we could have that drink!

Stephen
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#3 Jay A. Kelley

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 07:22 AM

Hi,

To be honest I don't think there are any haters here. Just working DoP's who would like to see some very basic latitude tests first. Only then can we see if the camera is interesting to us.

Note for Jim, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your sensor. I look forward to hearing what David Stump has to say. Just sorry that you will not let me carry out my own tests, then we could have that drink!

Stephen


I don't think it has anything to do with the equipment.. That's just the excuse.. It's about people and how they feel about things.. The camera represents different things to different people.

Jay
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#4 Keith Mottram

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 09:23 AM

I dont get the amount of energy working professionals are putting into talking about this camera... on both sides. I am busy, shooting/editing/etc. every day. I pop on this forum and other forums as often as possible to check out the scene and moreso on other forums, help others with any questions they may have.
ash =o)


Is this supposed to be ironic? You are posting about why people are wasting energy by posting? is this some kind of post-modern post? I am as confused about your post as i am about the notion that working professionals are the people who are lapdancing for red on this largely pointless subforum...which reminds me isn't it about time we changed this subforum to 'future cameras' or 'in development' or something and merge kinetta etc into the same subforum. hey we could even talk about cameras in development from camera firms with a proven track record as well....
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 10:54 AM

I don't think it has anything to do with the equipment.. That's just the excuse.. It's about people and how they feel about things.. The camera represents different things to different people.

Jay


Jay,

What equipment are you talking about? Red does not yet exist as a product. To many people it is their dream, they also dream of being able to make beautiful images.

IMHO the most important thing with any camera is knowing how to light.

Jim, I am not saying that you won't have a camera or that there is a problem with the sensor.

Stephen
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#6 Michael Schrengohst

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:17 PM

It's all about boys and their toys. I remember the fanfare and roll-out to the HVX200....
I have used every format from 1/2" Black & White to 35MM film.....
I have produced several projects with rented VariCam equipment and the HVX200 was the next logical step to get into affordable HD.The HVX for most of what I do NOW is totally up to the task......I will look at RED when it comes out.....I am shooting timelapse with a Nikon D-200 now and yes having the resolution of a large image is great. It looks like there will be plenty of RED owners who will be anxious to prove it's capabilities. I just went from SD editing to HD editing and could not be happier with the results. Of course all the deliverables are still SD. I have a few bleeding edge projects that are shooting for an HD deliverable. I doubt all the RED owners will spring for a 4K edit set-up but that will follow in LA and NYC first. It will be interesting to see how RED distributes a compatible REDCODE codec for use in todays edit systems.

Edited by Michael Schrengohst, 30 September 2006 - 01:18 PM.

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#7 Ash Greyson

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:50 PM

I think there are a handful of haters here and many skeptics. I think some skepticism is healthy but too many people are just plain rude about it. There is a difference between saying, "it is going to be tough, I wish you luck," and "you'll never do this" There are some people, like David Mullen, who actually seem to get it. An artist is not defined by his brush...




ash =o)
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#8 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 02:15 PM

but too many people are just plain rude about it


Spot on!

I joined this forum yesterday, because I am curious about the RED and want to read and discuss it with as many people as possible, and after making a quick readthrough of the posts the last few days, it´s really not very helpful what some posters put in.

I understand that this subthread is here to discuss RED, with open eyes, and healthy sceptisism - and not flaming it.

For the record: I have shot all formats from VHS to 35mm, I am an owner of a semi-pro HD cam and one 16mm Arri and I have a reservation for RED.

Looking forward to discuss RED in a constructive manner.
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 02:24 PM

I understand that this subthread is here to discuss RED, with open eyes, and healthy sceptisism - and not flaming it.


Hi,

Is it possible to flame a product that does not exist?

Jim, I am not saying that you won't build a camera or the is a problem with the sensor.

Stephen
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#10 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 02:56 PM

Jim, I am not saying that you won't build a camera or the is a problem with the sensor.

Stephen


Why do you keep re-stating this at the end of each one of your posts? Once is enough...we get it.
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#11 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:15 PM

Why do you keep re-stating this at the end of each one of your posts? Once is enough...we get it.


Hi,

Jim misinterpreted one of my earlier posts, if you search you may find the thread! I don't wish a repeat of that thread!

Stephen
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#12 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:17 PM

Hi,

Is it possible to flame a product that does not exist?

Jim, I am not saying that you won't build a camera or the is a problem with the sensor.

Stephen


What do you mean?
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:23 PM

What do you mean?


Hi,

The Red camera is not a product, you can't buy. It's not available to test. The camera has not been demonstrated working.

Its a 'work in progress' or 'future camera project'.

When the camera is available then people will be able to decide for themselves.

Stephen
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#14 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:40 PM

Hi,

The Red camera is not a product, you can't buy. It's not available to test. The camera has not been demonstrated working.

Its a 'work in progress' or 'future camera project'.

When the camera is available then people will be able to decide for themselves.

Stephen


Hi Stephen,

I agree!

I would like to see and partisipate in constructive discussions about RED - not flaming which is very well possible even though the product doesn´t exist.

I think this forum in general, and this subforum in particular provides a great possibility to discuss future solutions for image aquisition, and the RED team seems very commited with providing a new exciting option to us, and I want to discuss it in a costructive manner now - even though the camera doesn´t yet exist.


Eirik
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#15 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 04:35 PM

My opinion is neither here nor there, but for what it's worth, I support any new innovations in technology in any field. How many people got on the Aeroplane.com website to question and mock Orville and Wilbur as they were in R&D? :P

Point being, whether Panavision comes out with the Platinum II or makes strides in 4:4:4 HD or somebody builds something entirely new, like RED or Dalsa or some other third unknown, these are all attempts to create better tools that can be used in their own time for the large variety of projects that require image acquisition. All are certainly different from the others with different parameters and different uses. We choose a Panastar over a Gold, not because the Star is better, but because it suits that specific purpose. The same goes for choosing HDCAM over Varicam or RED over anything else (potentially). Some suggest that film is the end all and be all and that anything shot with electronic acquisition must not be worthy, an idea which is obviously patentedly ridiculous.

So I say that I hope that RED is a success and that other inventors will follow. Who knows, maybe one day we'll be saving images to organic memory cells. Imagine that instead of plugging in a battery or threading film that you'd actually have to feed the camera an IN & OUT Chocolate shake every twenty minutes! Cool thought, huh?!

Anyway, different cameras, different filmstocks, different electronic codecs, etc are all just tools in the process of telling stories, one no better or worse than the other. All just different for different purposes.

So I say, bring it on. If RED is everything they hope, then cool! Everyone who wants one will win and those who don't still have their own pet technology to cuddle up to at night. There's room in the pool for everyone with a new idea and nobody is forcing anything on anybody else as far as I can tell.

But I'm with the creator of this thread in not understanding how or why new technology is so threatening to some people, end users in particular. I can see how established manufacturers might get a little nervous as the new kid on block threatens the status quo, but other than that, what's the big deal?
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#16 Häakon

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 04:42 PM

Hi,

Is it possible to flame a product that does not exist?

As a product in a sealed, retail box, no the Red camera doesn't exist. However, they have successfully developed their own sensor, shared with us images that they have used it to create, and have stated - repeatedly - that they are on track to deliver everything that they have promised. It's okay to be skeptical - especially about a company who has no prior experience developing or selling cameras - but it's not as if their team is made up of dummies, either. There is more than Jim's word at stake here, including Graeme's and Tim's, who are both very respected in their industries. If you would prefer to just stay out of the conversation for a few months until a working camera is produced, I don't have a problem with that. But to sit around and day after day keep spouting the same "it doesn't exist yet" mantra is both annoying and not productive for anyone.
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#17 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 05:18 PM

As a product in a sealed, retail box, no the Red camera doesn't exist. However, they have successfully developed their own sensor, shared with us images that they have used it to create, and have stated - repeatedly - that they are on track to deliver everything that they have promised. It's okay to be skeptical - especially about a company who has no prior experience developing or selling cameras - but it's not as if their team is made up of dummies, either. There is more than Jim's word at stake here, including Graeme's and Tim's, who are both very respected in their industries. If you would prefer to just stay out of the conversation for a few months until a working camera is produced, I don't have a problem with that. But to sit around and day after day keep spouting the same "it doesn't exist yet" mantra is both annoying and not productive for anyone.


Hi Häakon,

Last time we were talking was before the HVX 200 was on sale! I thought that was the holy grail of cameras! & your still using just 1 name so I guess you won't be here much longer!

I only stated "it does not exist" so it can't be flamed!

I have offered to test the camera for Jim but he has so far refused. Until a working camera is shown there is very little to talk about IMHO.

Stephen
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#18 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 05:28 PM

Until a working camera is shown there is very little to talk about IMHO.

Stephen



Hi again Stephen,

I totally respect your opinion and your right to NOT discuss this camera at this point in time, so feel free to leave it to those of us who want to talk about RED now, we don´t want to waste your time.

Eirik

Edited by Eirik Tyrihjel, 30 September 2006 - 05:29 PM.

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#19 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 05:44 PM

Hi again Stephen,

I totally respect your opinion and your right to NOT discuss this camera at this point in time, so feel free to leave it to those of us who want to talk about RED now, we don´t want to waste your time.

Eirik


Have to agree with that...

Gunleik
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#20 Häakon

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 08:26 PM

Hi Häakon,

Last time we were talking was before the HVX 200 was on sale! I thought that was the holy grail of cameras! & your still using just 1 name so I guess you won't be here much longer!

I only stated "it does not exist" so it can't be flamed!

I have offered to test the camera for Jim but he has so far refused. Until a working camera is shown there is very little to talk about IMHO.

Stephen

If the HVX had delivered everything they had promised, I would still concede that it would be a very capable tool for independent film production. As it is, the performance of the camera does not live up to their claims (even claims they continued to make after the camera was released).

Since Red has shown footage already from their sensor, the biggest concerns I have with their system have already been addressed. If you don't like the images, that is completely your perogative.

I've made plenty of posts since the HVX came out, so perhaps you and I have just not crossed the same paths lately. I must say, it sure is nice to see your threats and exclamation marks again... I hope they have treated you well in the last several months! My name is my name and frankly I don't care what you think of it. I discussed the rules with the forum creator long ago and I don't need your approval to voice my opinions.

Lastly, it seems that others are in agreement that if you feel there is no point in discussing a camera that is not "for sale" yet, then no one is forcing you to participate here. The RED team has said that they welcome input and suggestions for their camera, and that is what these kinds of discussions exist for.
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