Jump to content


Photo

looking to buy a 16mm camera


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 Zamir Merali

Zamir Merali
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 185 posts
  • Director

Posted 09 October 2006 - 06:26 PM

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.
  • 0

#2 Rob.m.Neilson

Rob.m.Neilson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 78 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 09 October 2006 - 09:24 PM

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.


You could shoot sync with a motorized bolex. The FPS might not run perfectly, but I think it would be close enough unless you are planning to do very long takes for the film.

However a bolex is really loud, and you would have to pile the DP under sound blankets for most of the shots.

It also depends how much cash to have to spend. If I was going to shoot a feature on S16 I would buy an Arri SRII, or an Aaton Minima...but those are a bit expensive.
  • 0

#3 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 10 October 2006 - 04:32 AM

I'm considering buying a 16mm camera later on to play around with and shoot some short films on. I may eventually shoot a feature film on it. I was looking at cameras on ebay and was wondering if it woudl be possible for me to do sound with one of the wind up bolex cameras. Would it keep sync througout the shots and well as with all the other shots so i could use it as a mos camera. Thanks for your help.


I think, Kinor-16 SX-2M with 10-100 zoom lens and modfied 29EP crystal synch motor, 120 m film magazines will be good chooce for you.
The informatin about Kinor 16 and modified 29EP crystal synch motor you can see on forum or my pages.
  • 0

#4 Nate Downes

Nate Downes
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1638 posts
  • Florida, USA

Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:06 AM

I'm with Olex, for the price the Kinor is an excellent camera for sync sound work.
  • 0

#5 Zamir Merali

Zamir Merali
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 185 posts
  • Director

Posted 13 October 2006 - 06:53 PM

First of all thanks for your suggestions guys.

Two more questions.

Would a k3 camera give me the same picture quality as any other 16mm camera except that it would not run at a consant speed? Secondly, how does this camera look, http://cgi.ebay.ca/w...wIt...A:IT&rd=1

Thanks for your help.
  • 0

#6 Mike Rizos

Mike Rizos
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 330 posts
  • Other

Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:23 PM

That camera is almost identical to the early CP-16. The biggest drawback is being non reflex, and you are pretty much stuck with a lens with a sidefinder.
That particular camera looks to be in bad shape, and it costs about $1,000 to rebuilt them. Then you need batteries, magazines, another lens. I am not sure what is meant when the lens is described as "loose". It also looks like it has a musty odor.
If you're patient you can pick up a Bolex 4 or 5 with three lenses and/or zoom, for a few hundred on e-bay.
  • 0

#7 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:34 PM

If you are looking for a very reliable, fantastically well built, 16mm camera that universities like NYU, UCLA, and many others use for their students first short films, look no further than the Arriflex 16S. Here are some on eBay for sale:

Arriflex 16S/B

Posted Image

Arriflex-16S-Camera-and-Battery-Package

Posted Image

Arriflex 16S with Cooke Kinetals

Posted Image

Arriflex 16S w/Accessories

Posted Image

-Tim
  • 0

#8 Rik Andino

Rik Andino
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 783 posts
  • Electrician
  • New York City

Posted 14 October 2006 - 02:48 AM

Before you go out and invest on a 16mm camera
I suggest you take a little bit of time to learn about shooting film
And specifically learn a little bit more about 16mm cameras.

Shooting 16mm film isn't complicated
but it helps to have a bit on knowledge on the subject
Before you invest all your money into it.
Shooting film is expensive enough
& you don't want to make unecessary costly mistakes.

If you're looking for a camera to learn filmmaking on
the K-3 or the Bolex are both very good choices...
The Arri-S is also a good choice expect a little more expensive to own.

However if you're looking for a camera to shoot a low-budget short of feature
Then you have to start looking at better cameras--
Because all three cameras aren't going to cut it when it comes to pro-synch sound shooting.

At the low end you'll find cameras such as the aforementioned Kinor or CP16
Also cameras like the Arri 16BL and the Eclair NPR...

if you have a little more money you can get an Eclair ACL or an older Aaton or Arri SR.
Which are very good cameras for professional synch sound shooting.

It takes time to learn which cameras are useful
And which you shouldn't waste your money on.
So I suggest you buy a few books and read up on 16mm cameras
Before you start spending you hard-earned cash.


Good Luck
  • 0

#9 Zamir Merali

Zamir Merali
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 185 posts
  • Director

Posted 15 October 2006 - 06:20 PM

I've finally narrowed my selection down to two different cameras. One is a bolex h-16 reflex with a motor included. The second is an arriflex 16s. The h-16 is 71 dollars right now but with a day to go so i dont know how expensive it will get. On the other hand the arriflex is already at 400 and has three days left. Ive seen the same arriflex deal go for 400 so i think that could be close to the final price. I want to know if you have any advice on which camera to go for.

Here is the link for the bolex
http://cgi.ebay.ca/w...wIt...A:IT&rd=1

Here is for the arriflex
http://cgi.ebay.ca/w...wIt...A:IT&rd=1
  • 0

#10 Clive Tobin

Clive Tobin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Spokane Valley, WA, USA

Posted 15 October 2006 - 06:34 PM

...
Here is the link for the bolex
http://cgi.ebay.ca/w...wIt...A:IT&rd=1

Here is for the arriflex
http://cgi.ebay.ca/w...wIt...A:IT&rd=1

The Bolex is a slightly beat-up looking original Reflex AKA Rex-0 from I think 1956. It does not have the 1:1 shaft for the newer crystal or timelapse motors made by us or by Bolex. However we still make a crystal motor that will fit, the TXM-26B if you ever want to try double system sound filming with it. The supplied motor is a Unimotor whose speed is governed more or less with the camera's speed dial while you feed in a rather odd voltage, 24 or 30 volts DC. This has the rather small (6x) and dark reflex finder. It does not have a variable shutter but frankly I think you are better off without one. It will not take a 400' magazine. For looking for a newer model you might refer to the Identifying Your Bolex article with lots of pictures on my website.

The Arri does come with the 400' magazine which is powered by a very noisy (audibly and electrically) torque motor. We no longer make a crystal motor for the Arri S or M but you could shoot double system wired sync with a Nagra or similar audio recorder, if you get the constant speed motor and have the pilot generator installed. (I don't know if anyone still offers this.) I will defer to Arri experts for any additional analysis.
  • 0

#11 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 15 October 2006 - 06:53 PM

Of the two of those I would definitely go with the Arri 16S because you can do so much more with it.

Find one of Clive's motors and it is a crystal sync camera. Even with a properly set up 24 fps constant speed motor you can record sound with a DAT, MiniDisc or Hard Drive recorder and sync in post. As long as the takes aren't too long, it really isn't that tough (but Clive's motor is a better way to go). If you want to shoot sync sound, use 100 ft internal loads and wrap the camera in a down coat, packing blanket, or something similar to deaden the sound. Don't try sound recording with the 400 ft mag and torque motor attached, they are VERY LOUD.

There are many professional lenses available in ARRI standard mount, where there aren't for the C-Mount Bolex.

There are 200 ft magazines, multiple matte boxes, the camera takes standard ARRI 15mm lightweight rods that many folks make. This will also let you use follow focus and many different brands of matte box.

The Arriflex 16S was designed and built to be a professional 16mm motion picture camera. The Bolex was designed and built to be a prosumer 16mm motion picture camera.

But then again, I am a bit biased.
-Tim
  • 0

#12 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:37 AM

At the low end you'll find cameras such as the aforementioned Kinor or CP16
Also cameras like the Arri 16BL and the Eclair NPR...

if you have a little more money you can get an Eclair ACL or an older Aaton or Arri SR.
Which are very good cameras for professional synch sound shooting.


If we compare cameras from technical characteristics, i think, Kinor-16 ( crystal sync motor version ) need compare with Arri SR, Elcair ACL, not with Eclair NPR.
The many my customers, who use of Kinor-16 cameras, to compare Kinor-16 with Arri SR-1, 2 cameras and prefer of Kinor-16.

Yes, we told about Arri mount lenses, but, we must compare quality of this lenses and price of this lenses too. Russian lenses have low price and high optical characteristics. The users of russian lenses compare quality of OKS and OPF lenses with quality of Carl Zeiss lenses.

The many filmmakers be delighted with quality of Optal Illumina and Elite Optics lenses, but, this is new generation of russian OKS and OPF lenses.

That's why, i recommend study of all sides of cameras before choose.
  • 0

#13 Max Lundberg

Max Lundberg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Europe

Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:28 AM

If we compare cameras from technical characteristics, i think, Kinor-16 ( crystal sync motor version ) need compare with Arri SR, Elcair ACL, not with Eclair NPR.

The NPR is technically way more similar to the kinor than the ACL. Both have spinning mirror shutter, reg pin, adjustable shutter(only early kinor models) etc.
  • 0

#14 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:39 AM

Olex,

Please do not take offense, but you cannot possibly compare the Kinor 16 with an Arriflex 16SR, or SRII. The Arriflex is a production camera that is used professionally around the world (with everything that entails like the availability of accessories, support, lenses, etc.). It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.

-Tim
  • 0

#15 Tomas Stacewicz

Tomas Stacewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Other
  • Gothenburg, Sweden

Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:26 AM

It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.


People that have compared the picture quality of Arri SR:s and Aatons with the Kinor-16 say otherwise; it plays in the same league. But when it comes to accessories, service, etc. I agree with you. Obviously, you have to gain something if you want to pay the higher price.
  • 0

#16 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:10 AM

People that have compared the picture quality of Arri SR:s and Aatons with the Kinor-16 say otherwise; it plays in the same league. But when it comes to accessories, service, etc. I agree with you. Obviously, you have to gain something if you want to pay the higher price.


I can compare the picture quality from an Arriflex 16S/B that you can pick up on eBay for $600 with the picture quality from an $50,000 Aaton XTR if we use the same lens on both cameras and both cameras are set up to spec. That doesn't tell you anything.

To compare a Kinor 16 with a professional production camera, and everything that entails, like availability of matte boxes, follow focus, lightweight rods, baseplates, etc., not to mention service, is just not realistic. And that does not even begin to cover issues like build quality and reliability.

Not saying the Kinor 16 is not a nice camera for what it is, but it is certainly not a professional production camera in the same league with the SR's.

-Tim
  • 0

#17 Bill DiPietra

Bill DiPietra
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2339 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York City

Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:14 AM

I agree. Learn a bit more about shooting FILM. Maybe take a class in which you use a few different 16mm cameras. I learned on the Bolex and the Canon Scoopic in college. I wasn't fond of either. I usually rented the Arri 16S and learned the camera on my own. I recently bought one with Zeiss primes. Very nice camera.
  • 0

#18 Chad Stockfleth

Chad Stockfleth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 622 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Louisville, KY

Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:52 AM

I have a 16SR package for sale for a pretty affordable price if you have any interest. PM me with questions.
  • 0

#19 Olex Kalynychenko

Olex Kalynychenko
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine

Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:16 PM

Olex,

Please do not take offense, but you cannot possibly compare the Kinor 16 with an Arriflex 16SR, or SRII. The Arriflex is a production camera that is used professionally around the world (with everything that entails like the availability of accessories, support, lenses, etc.). It is in a whole different league than the Kinor 16.

-Tim



About Eclair NPR and Kinor.
I check of user manual of NPR again and not see any words about transport mechanism and registration pins.
If you send me picture from film gate of NPR and mechanical diagram of NPR camera, i can change of my opinion.
I know ACL very good and repair many ACL cameras and i can compare of Kinor mechanism and ACL mechanism inside.

Kinor-16 professional cine camera, design and use for professional film shooting.
Kinor have mono lens mount with design and optical quality similar of Arri PL. I not set Arri standard lens mount on one line, because, this is lens mount have other design and less precision of clamping of lens.
The turret design of lens mount i not compare too.
Kinor have wide set of prime lenses from 6 mm up to 200 mm, wide set of zoom lenses 7.5-75 mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm. This is not professional set of accessories ?
Yes, Kinor 16 SX-2M have not mate box, similar of Arri SR, because, this is not need, the every of lens have personal lens hood and use of big mate box on reportage filming not good idea.
The compendium have Kinor-16 SX-1M.
You need compendium ?
You can take compendium from Konvas-1M camera and use with Kinor-16.
What technical characteristics of Kinor -16 worse from Arri SR ?
But, you can buy Arri SR for $800..1200 ? not. Kinor can be buy for this money.
Yes, Arri company make very good cameras, but, this is very expensive equipments.

Today Kinor can have crystal sync motor with fixed speeds and digital voltmeter.
On future, Kinor can have crystal sync motor with speed synthesizer with steps of 1 fps, 0.1 fps, 0.01 fps, digital film counter, digital remote control and other electronics possibilities.
  • 0

#20 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:17 PM

Olex my friend, we will have to agree to disagree. All the best to you.

-Tim
  • 0


Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

Tai Audio

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

FJS International, LLC

Metropolis Post

The Slider

rebotnix Technologies

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Ritter Battery

Tai Audio

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

The Slider