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#1 Christophe Collette

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:09 PM

Hi, I am shooting a music video on a beach next week, weather will be pretty gray apparently. Will be Black and White 16mm. Transfert is on Telecine, Spirit probably. I need a film with very little grain but a little faster than 7231. I thought of 7222, but apparently it has a lot of grain. What is a good option for me, I want to shoot negative, not reversal, I worry about grain, production has to look clean.

Should I shoot color, 200T or Vision 2 250D??

I think that shooting color to transfert to BW in post is not that good of an idea but have never done it.

Is Fuji an option?? I never shot on Fuji before.

Thanks a lot.
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#2 Wendell_Greene

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:17 PM

I'd recommend you shoot color neg and go B&W in telecine.
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#3 Christophe Collette

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:57 PM

I'd recommend you shoot color neg and go B&W in telecine.


Thanks a lot Wendell, I had to order film today so I went for 7218, vision2. Hope it gives me a good BW in the end. The producer is'nt feeling too good about an 80 ASA speed film, 7231, our other option, he'd rather a 200ASA + emulsion. Just in case it gets really dark out there. We are shooting outside with no lights. I think it would have been fine but it is an important gig. Who does grain compare between 7218 and 7231??


Thanks again,
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#4 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 01:38 PM

7218 will deliver very grainy sky's. Even if you crank up the NR it will look grainy

I suggest 7217 or 7205

If you are shooting during the day these will deliver plenty of speed

I recently shot a film in The NYC area. The Producer and director insisted on shooting B&W. The only viable choice was 7231 all other options are extremely grainy in S16. I was shooting 7231 at an ISO of 32 in the rain and fog of the Pocono's and got exposures of 2.8 to 4.

B&W really is a different animal and I was able to use the accumulated knowledge of shooting B&W stills for 20 years to get really exceptional results
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#5 Christophe Collette

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 03:55 PM

7218 will deliver very grainy sky's. Even if you crank up the NR it will look grainy

I suggest 7217 or 7205

If you are shooting during the day these will deliver plenty of speed

I recently shot a film in The NYC area. The Producer and director insisted on shooting B&W. The only viable choice was 7231 all other options are extremely grainy in S16. I was shooting 7231 at an ISO of 32 in the rain and fog of the Pocono's and got exposures of 2.8 to 4.

B&W really is a different animal and I was able to use the accumulated knowledge of shooting B&W stills for 20 years to get really exceptional results



My mistake I ordered 7217 ( not 7218 )!! I really considered 7231 but the low ISO scared the producer. Thanks for the infos.

Christophe
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#6 Chris Burke

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 07:12 AM

My mistake I ordered 7217 ( not 7218 )!! I really considered 7231 but the low ISO scared the producer. Thanks for the infos.

Christophe



what about 7266 or 7265? Less grain than 7222. Fuji B&W is hard to obtain and only available in Europe and Asia, so it would seem. I would love it if Fuji Acros was available for motion picture.

Chris
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#7 Sam Wells

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 09:37 AM

Are you shooting day, evening, both - what ?

"One size fits all" is tricky here.

You could shoot 7231, process at 0.7 gamma, rate it ~ 100 in daylight.

Plus-X reversal would be the cleanest B&W grain wise.

In 16mm you're gonna see some grain.

-Sam
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#8 Christophe Collette

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 07:02 PM

Are you shooting day, evening, both - what ?

"One size fits all" is tricky here.

You could shoot 7231, process at 0.7 gamma, rate it ~ 100 in daylight.

Plus-X reversal would be the cleanest B&W grain wise.

In 16mm you're gonna see some grain.

-Sam


Hi! Thanks for sharing all this with me. I am going for 7217. It's already purchased. I got pushed into this pretty big production, well, pretty big for me, I am just starting DPing, 6 videos in 16mm, one in 35mm, and the producer did not want to take the risk of not being able to shoot all day with 7231. He did not trust me when I said 80 asa was plenty for a shooting outside basically (we are not shooting at nightime). If it was only me, I would rather shoot black and white knowing that the final output is black and white, but it seems like most videos in black and white shot in Quebec recently have been shot in color and transfered in BW in post. I wonder why, really, is BW more expensive or harder to process in Montreal or Toronto?? Or is it that color film such as 7217 have a greater latitude? I am transfering on Spirit so I think it will turn out fine, especially knowing that the director wants a very soft contrast imagery. The same producer I work for on this video shot the last Tragically Hip video two weeks ago and they did exactly this, color for BW, 7217 but 35mm and it looked good.

Many thanks again!
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#9 Sam Wells

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 08:01 PM

Don't forget your ND's and sunscreen.

(A Pola might be your friend too).

And don't go in the water right after you eat :D

-Sam
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#10 Frank Barrera

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:15 PM

i believe the popularity of shooting color for b and w is a product of commerical clients and producers wanting full options in post. everyone has heard the story about the b and w commercial shoot and in post the producer asked the dp if they could change the dailies to color. i have shot a couple of "b and w" commercial projects where the bosses wanted to shoot b and w film and i told them "no, just do it in post". one of them went for the b and w in post and the other changed their minds and were very happy that we had shot color.

F
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#11 Bryan Darling

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 01:47 PM

7218 will deliver very grainy sky's. Even if you crank up the NR it will look grainy

I suggest 7217 or 7205

If you are shooting during the day these will deliver plenty of speed

I recently shot a film in The NYC area. The Producer and director insisted on shooting B&W. The only viable choice was 7231 all other options are extremely grainy in S16. I was shooting 7231 at an ISO of 32 in the rain and fog of the Pocono's and got exposures of 2.8 to 4.

B&W really is a different animal and I was able to use the accumulated knowledge of shooting B&W stills for 20 years to get really exceptional results



I was curious as to what brought about rating the 7231 at 32ASA?
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#12 Bryan Darling

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 02:10 PM

You could shoot 7231, process at 0.7 gamma, rate it ~ 100 in daylight.

-Sam


How can one figure out to what gamma you would like the film processed to? I'm assuming there can be a direct correlation to how you rate the film? I ask because I shot some test footage on 7222 yesterday. It was an indoor night location at a cafe. I'm testing out the film in relation to he available lighting to see where I need to fill in and to how much based on how the film sees the room. I rated it for 320asa and am going to ask the lab to push a stop. In which case it would be 400asa.

I'm going to test out 7266 as well with a push one. I've pushed it in the past and liked the look. I must say I wish there was a medium to high speed color reversal stock. I've pushed 7285 one stop with great results. I think I will do a two stop push test in the same location to see how it results.
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#13 Richardson Leao

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 10:09 PM

How can one figure out to what gamma you would like the film processed to? I'm assuming there can be a direct correlation to how you rate the film? I ask because I shot some test footage on 7222 yesterday. It was an indoor night location at a cafe. I'm testing out the film in relation to he available lighting to see where I need to fill in and to how much based on how the film sees the room. I rated it for 320asa and am going to ask the lab to push a stop. In which case it would be 400asa.

I'm going to test out 7266 as well with a push one. I've pushed it in the past and liked the look. I must say I wish there was a medium to high speed color reversal stock. I've pushed 7285 one stop with great results. I think I will do a two stop push test in the same location to see how it results.


ORWO (www.dacan.dk or http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/) has 400 and 100 ISO BW negs. Very nice stocks.
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#14 Sam Wells

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 10:10 AM

How can one figure out to what gamma you would like the film processed to? I'm assuming there can be a direct correlation to how you rate the film?


Tell the lab. (Talk to them first). Some consider 0.65 to be "normal" in which case 0.7 is like a 1/2 stop push.

Some just use 0.7 as "normal"

-Sam
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#15 Bryan Darling

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 11:47 AM

Tell the lab. (Talk to them first). Some consider 0.65 to be "normal" in which case 0.7 is like a 1/2 stop push.

Some just use 0.7 as "normal"

-Sam


OK. because the material I read on development of MP B&W film shows for a gamma of .65-.7
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#16 Jan Weis

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 12:47 PM

ORWO (www.dacan.dk or http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/) has 400 and 100 ISO BW negs. Very nice stocks.



Does ORWO film have a special processing? Or can any lab process using Kodak's chemistry?
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#17 Richardson Leao

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:36 PM

Does ORWO film have a special processing? Or can any lab process using Kodak's chemistry?


Normal BW process. I do it at home but it's the same as for kodak 7222 or 7231 using kodak bw developer.
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#18 Christophe Collette

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 09:41 PM

Hi guys! thanks all for your input, as I mentionned earlier, I ended up shooting 7217, which proved to be a really good choice, You can have a look at the result. It is a funny video, don't take it seriously! We portrayed the singer as this muscular guy, which he is far from, and the member of the bands as bodyguards... He walks naked on a beach... Just plain silly. We had to shoot on a green screen the shots at the end to fit his head on the body of the bodybuilder.

Enjoy! the contrast is a little off on this file but here it goes anyway!




Christophe
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