Jump to content


Photo

Print a positive or invert in post?


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Andrew Means

Andrew Means
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Other

Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:03 AM

I just got some 200T and 500T developed at Alphacine in Seattle as part of my bulk batch from Japan, and they said they didn't make positive prints of negative super8 (and they didn't know of anybody who did).

I suppose I could telecine the negative I have, and then flip the image in post- is that what most of you do?
  • 0

#2 Stephen Williams

Stephen Williams
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4708 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Europe

Posted 17 October 2006 - 11:23 AM

I just got some 200T and 500T developed at Alphacine in Seattle as part of my bulk batch from Japan, and they said they didn't make positive prints of negative super8 (and they didn't know of anybody who did).

I suppose I could telecine the negative I have, and then flip the image in post- is that what most of you do?


Hi,

Most people telecine from a negative and end up grading normal (positive) colours.

Stephen
  • 0

#3 Andrew Means

Andrew Means
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Other

Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:25 PM

Any suggestions, tips, tutorials for somebody who's never done it before?

I'll be using Sony Vegas 5

Edited by Andrew Means, 17 October 2006 - 01:26 PM.

  • 0

#4 Bryan Darling

Bryan Darling
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Director
  • Sacramento, CA

Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:54 PM

It's flipped in the telecine itself, that is if you are using a professional telecine. You shouldn't have to flip it in your editor.
  • 0

#5 Andrew Means

Andrew Means
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Other

Posted 17 October 2006 - 03:09 PM

It's flipped in the telecine itself, that is if you are using a professional telecine. You shouldn't have to flip it in your editor.


I'm using this-could-easily-look-like-crap-so-I'm-doing-this-roll-on-the-cheap telecine, so it won't be flipped for me. No colorist on this job, it's just travel footage from Japan; if there's anything I really like on it I might get it telecine'd professionally.
  • 0

#6 Bryan Darling

Bryan Darling
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Director
  • Sacramento, CA

Posted 17 October 2006 - 06:49 PM

If you are using a projector or such you are asking for a nightmare. Vegas should have an invert filter/effect. The problem is in the orange mask. The film is very dense and will be very dark. Add to that the large amounts of color work you will have to do to get rid of the orange mask. You will need to be able to adjust the highlights, mids, and shadows all independently. It might be easier and not that much just to send to Spectra Film & Video and have a one-light done of all your film onto Mini-DV. At $225/hr you can go through a lot of film, 1/2 hour min.

I'm not trying to talk you out of doing it on your own, just somethings you should be aware of. Anyhow if you do do it on your own it's just going to be a lot of experimenting and trial to find what works. Keep in mind that the negative will pick up a lot of dust and scratches going through a projector. It's far more noticeable because the dust and scratches turn out white. Not to mention if you decide to have it professionally transferred, etc. it will be in that condition.
  • 0

#7 Clive Tobin

Clive Tobin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Spokane Valley, WA, USA

Posted 17 October 2006 - 07:13 PM

I just got some 200T and 500T developed at Alphacine in Seattle as part of my bulk batch from Japan, and they said they didn't make positive prints of negative super8 (and they didn't know of anybody who did)


I was toying with the idea of setting up to do this and inquired of Rich at Forde if they could process single strand 8mm width color positive. Rich forwarded the email to his new master at Alpha who never bothered to reply.
  • 0

#8 Andrew Means

Andrew Means
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Other

Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:16 AM

If you are using a projector or such you are asking for a nightmare. Vegas should have an invert filter/effect. The problem is in the orange mask. The film is very dense and will be very dark. Add to that the large amounts of color work you will have to do to get rid of the orange mask. You will need to be able to adjust the highlights, mids, and shadows all independently. It might be easier and not that much just to send to Spectra Film & Video and have a one-light done of all your film onto Mini-DV. At $225/hr you can go through a lot of film, 1/2 hour min.

I'm not trying to talk you out of doing it on your own, just somethings you should be aware of. Anyhow if you do do it on your own it's just going to be a lot of experimenting and trial to find what works. Keep in mind that the negative will pick up a lot of dust and scratches going through a projector. It's far more noticeable because the dust and scratches turn out white. Not to mention if you decide to have it professionally transferred, etc. it will be in that condition.


Yeah- I only got two rolls of negative, and for 115 it's a little much. Next time I have a big batch maybe I'll send the whole thing there though- that would actually be cheaper if I hadn't already dropped my reversal off for telecine...

I'll give it a shot in Vegas and see what I come up with. Should be interesting!
  • 0

#9 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:50 PM

I suppose I could telecine the negative I have, and then flip the image in post- is that what most of you do?


The image orientation on the camera negative is the same as on a camera reversal original.
  • 0

#10 Douglas Hunter

Douglas Hunter
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 356 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 20 October 2006 - 12:02 PM

I'm using this-could-easily-look-like-crap-so-I'm-doing-this-roll-on-the-cheap telecine, so it won't be flipped for me. No colorist on this job, it's just travel footage from Japan; if there's anything I really like on it I might get it telecine'd professionally.



Don't know how much telecine experience you have but, I strongly suggest that you DO NOT do this with negative!! Using a non-professional telecine is likely to ruin the film. Remember that the negative emulsion is much softer than reversal film, its very fragile and should only be put through a professional telecine designed to handle negative film.

Also for reasons mentioned earlier I doubt that you will get the film to look right using vegas or any other softwear. Doing an on the cheap telecine of neg. is going to be a lose-lose situation for you.

Save a little more money, wait a few weeks, and get it done right.
  • 0

#11 Bryan Darling

Bryan Darling
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Director
  • Sacramento, CA

Posted 20 October 2006 - 02:32 PM

Yeah- I only got two rolls of negative, and for 115 it's a little much. Next time I have a big batch maybe I'll send the whole thing there though- that would actually be cheaper if I hadn't already dropped my reversal off for telecine...

I'll give it a shot in Vegas and see what I come up with. Should be interesting!



To make it more cost-effective. Why don't you just transfer both your negative and your revesal? Then $115 becomes a good deal both cost-wise and in quality of telecine for what you'll have to work with in the computer.
  • 0

#12 Andrew Means

Andrew Means
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Other

Posted 22 October 2006 - 01:25 PM

To make it more cost-effective. Why don't you just transfer both your negative and your revesal? Then $115 becomes a good deal both cost-wise and in quality of telecine for what you'll have to work with in the computer.


I may do just that when I get back from my band's tour... I think that makes sense; I'll have a good idea of what to expect from the other footage and I'll know if its worth doing it right...
  • 0

#13 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2422 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 22 October 2006 - 01:50 PM

Leo- they mean invert, as in convert neg to pos, not flip (or flop in my book).
  • 0

#14 Anthony Schilling

Anthony Schilling
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1053 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Portland, OR

Posted 22 October 2006 - 03:11 PM

Kodak makes pos print film for super 8 neg... but the demand in the US has not been enough for any labs to invest in it. I would love to see the 17 and 18 projected in S8, but for now i would have to send it to Europe.
  • 0

#15 romeo jesus

romeo jesus
  • Guests

Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:38 AM

www.andecfilm.de in germany offers a negative to positive service for 1.15euro/meter
its only one light, but I read on another forum that the results look great..

I am planning to use that service for one of my next projects


christian
  • 0

#16 Gianni Raineri

Gianni Raineri
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 43 posts
  • Other
  • London England

Posted 28 October 2006 - 04:40 PM

Isn't Super 8 supposed to be flexible and easy to use? Don't be held hostage to this technology. Professionals may have to clients who pay for quality stuff, but amateurs only have to please themselves. I say videotape the projection of the negative from your projector, and damn the dust and scratches. Make them part of the experience. It's your personal home movies. If you don't like the color convert it to black and white. Use photo shop to retouch the video filmstrip .flm file.

Next rant... I'm recklessly speculating now as I have yet to processed any color negative film with my DIY telecine experiments yet. I recall somebody once said that blue (flourescent correction filter or 80A 80B or 80C or 82A-B-C Type) would help with correcting the orange mask. Blue filter removes Red color. Go ahead give it a try and tell us how it works. Print out a blue OHP transparency "filter" on your inkjet printer, or get a $5.00 flourescent colour correction filter off ebay. Supposedly 10% of males are color blind, just pretend you are too and enjoy your flicks. I have processed Expired B&W Quartzchrome Super 8 Reversal as negative and telecined that, flipping it in the camcorder as negative art.



Gianni in Londinium B)
  • 0


Glidecam

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Opal

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

Technodolly

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Metropolis Post

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Willys Widgets

The Slider

Glidecam

Technodolly

Opal

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineLab

Wooden Camera

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Metropolis Post

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape