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Kinor 16 CX-2M question


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#1 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 04:12 PM

I have some questions about the Kinor 16 camera i want to get. How does the "sync sound pulse" work? How would i rig it to a DAT? Also, the 25fps motor, can i sync sound to it? I want to shoot a sync sound film with this camera and would be buying it to shoot stuff with sync sound, would this be a good choice?
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#2 Ole Dost

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:11 PM

I have some questions about the Kinor 16 camera i want to get. How does the "sync sound pulse" work? How would i rig it to a DAT? Also, the 25fps motor, can i sync sound to it? I want to shoot a sync sound film with this camera and would be buying it to shoot stuff with sync sound, would this be a good choice?


The 25fps motor is quit; abput 40 db. I´m doing sync sound recording, but I´m not using the pilot-ton-generator. I´m recording sound digitally -but not with DAT. It works well. Olexandr is introducing a crystelsync conversion of the motor what seems to be very interesting for sync sound shooting. Olexandr provides a lot of technical help for Kinor-users. This is his homepage: www.geocities.com/russiancamera You can ask him your questions. He is a real expert on Kinor 16.
Get a Kinor 16 -it´s great. It offers the image-quality of much more expensive Cameras such as the Arri SR.
Sorry for my bad English....
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#3 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:17 PM

The 25fps motor is quit; abput 40 db. I´m doing sync sound recording, but I´m not using the pilot-ton-generator. I´m recording sound digitally -but not with DAT. It works well. Olexandr is introducing a crystelsync conversion of the motor what seems to be very interesting for sync sound shooting. Olexandr provides a lot of technical help for Kinor-users. This is his homepage: www.geocities.com/russiancamera You can ask him your questions. He is a real expert on Kinor 16.
Get a Kinor 16 -it´s great. It offers the image-quality of much more expensive Cameras such as the Arri SR.
Sorry for my bad English....

thank you so much, i was just wondering, do you do sync sound with the 25fps motor?
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#4 Ole Dost

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:28 PM

thank you so much, i was just wondering, do you do sync sound with the 25fps motor?


Yes, I do. Allthough certainly in a primitive, not very sophisticated way... You know, I´m recording also on a miniDV Cam (with a good external microphone) while shooting with my Kinor. When I get the exposed and developped films telecined, I´m adding the sound to the pictures shot by the Kinor in my Computer. It´s primitive, but it works well. I´m using the standard motor for the Kinor without crystalsync conversion.
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#5 Evan Kubota

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:15 AM

I record sound as I shoot with the Kinor. I use a Marantz PMD660. Here's a sample of a scene with this method.

http://plaza.ufl.edu...ta/dialogue.mp4
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#6 jacob thomas

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:39 PM

Sorry bit off topic but... How do you power your Kinor and does it have the original motor or a modified one and if so how much did the mod cost and where did you get it done? :blink:
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#7 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:11 PM

I have some questions about the Kinor 16 camera i want to get. How does the "sync sound pulse" work? How would i rig it to a DAT? Also, the 25fps motor, can i sync sound to it? I want to shoot a sync sound film with this camera and would be buying it to shoot stuff with sync sound, would this be a good choice?


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#8 Ian Marks

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:25 PM

Olex, your modified Kinor motor looks very interesting. Are you currently offering this modification or selling these?
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#9 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:35 PM

Sorry.
My Internet server had lineout and my last letter had not text.
==

A some explanation.
The some times ago, the film makers to use a sync sound recorder with recording of Polit signal.
The cine camera had electrical motor with Pilot Signal generator, this is generator give signal with frequency depend from speed of camera. If the speed had 25 fps, Pilot signal to give 50 hz of sound.
The sound recorder had two tracks, the first track for recording of sound , the second track for recording of
Pilot signal from Pilot signal generator of camera.

If you will need reproduce of sound, the recorder take signal from Pilot signal track and adjust of speed of reproduction up to 50 hz of Pilot signal. The post production film equipments had AC motor with fixed speed 25 fps and film track and sound track had full identity.

As an example.
If your camera had speed 24.8 fps, the pilot signal send 49.6 hz and sound recorder recorded of Pilot signal 49.8 hz.
But, at post production, the film edit machine showed film with speed 25 fps, ( camera had 24.8 fps ) and the film shower with a some high speed.
The sound recorder reproduced of sound with a some high speed too, because, adjust of speed of reproduction with Pulot signal from 49.6 hz up to 50 hz and
film track and sound track had full identity too.
You can see, the Pilot signal system not depend from real speed of camera.

But, the Pilot signal system need connect pilot generator of camera with sound recorder.

The next generation of film cameras to use crystal sync electrical motor.
This is motors have fixed speed with high precision stabilization from crystal oscillator. The crystal oscillator have very high stability of frequency and speed of camera have high stability too.

If you take sound recorder with high precision stabilization of speed of recording or digital sound recorder, you will have full synchronization of sound track and film because, the cine camera have crystal sync speed and sound recorder have crystal sync speed or DAT system too.

The some Sound recorders with Pilot signal system had sound generator of Pilots signal with crystal oscillator
inside and if you take cine camera with crystal sync
electrical motor, you not need connect camera with sound recorder, because, the sound recorder will take Polit signal from internal Pilot signal generator with
crystal oscillator.

About Kinor-16 SX-2M camera.
The original electrical motor of Kinor-16 SX-2M camera have DC motor with analog system of speed stabilization ( precision of speed +/- 2.5 % ) and have internal Pilot signal generator.
The frequency of Pilot signal generator depend from speed of camera and have 50 hz with speed of camera 25 fps.

If you use modern DAT sound recorders without Pilot signal system, you can recording of sound on one track and signal from Pilot Generator on other track.
At post production ( with computer editor ) you need to measure of frequency of Pilot signal from second track and adjust of speed of reproduction up to Pilot signal will have frequency 50 hz.

Other way.
Until of shooting, you need service of motor and check of frequency of Pilot signal generator of camera and adjust of speed of camera up to 25 fps ( 50 Hz Pilot Signal ).
This is very easy, you need adjust of variable resistor of speed adjusting from rear side of motor.
( if need, I can show this hole on body of motor ).


But, if you wish have modern electrical motor with crystal sync speed stabilization and not wish have "headache" with adjust of sound track, you need modify of electrical motor of 29EPSS motor on crystal synch version.

The original motor 29EPSS of Kinor-16 SX-2M camera have very good russian DC motor DPR-72 12 v 6000 rpm with high power ( nominal 12v 3A 36 W and peak mode 12 v 24A 288W).
This is motor have empty rotor, have very small inertia and have high compatibility with PWM electronic systems of speed control.
This is version of DC motor have Pulses velocity transducer ( frequency - speed ) and can be use like of measuring instrument of feed back of PID control.

The modified 29EP-1414 electrical motor with crystal sync seed control use orginal DC motor DPR-72 with original velocity transducer, original reducer of 2:1 and original body of motor and handle.
The modified motor have new microporcessor controller with crystal sync speed PID control and additional
operating control.

The modified motor can have 6, 10, 16 crystal sync speed and other technical possibilities.

This is :
1. wide list of crystal sync speeds :
6.25, 8, 12, 12.5, 15, 16, 16.6, 20, 24, 25, 30, 32, 33,3, 40, 48, 50 fps.

This is list included a few series of speeds :
- for ? academy ? film shooting with base speed 24 fps and a speeds divisible by 24
8, 12, 16, 24, 32, 48,
- for PAL TV shooting and 50 HZ frequency of main power, with base speed 25 fps and a speeds divisible by 25
6.25, 12.5, 16.6, 25, 33,3, 50
- for NTSC TV shooting and 60 Hz frequency of main power, with base speed 30 fps and a speeds divisible by 30
8, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 40,

2. The new version of motor have 4 pin XLR cannon power connector, international standard of power connector of cine and video equipments.
3. New style of fuse holder for international glass fuses.
4. Soft start and soft stop of motor. This is technical possibilities very important for run camera on high speed.
5. Manual adjust of phase of speed at run mode and manual turn of axis on low sped at stop mode.
6 Wide system of sound information. The electronic confirm you correct loading of program with on of motor, at run of motor, at stop of motor, at stop of motor on fixed position, beep of not crystal sync speed.
7. Light signal of not crystal sync speed.
8. The electronics have protective diode from connect battery with reversal polarity
9. The electronics have high power output stage with high power reserve, 55V, 75 A
10. The new edition of motor can have digital voltmeter for show condition of battery.

You can order special additional module with Shutter Parking stops the camera each time in the viewing position

( Please, see image from my previous letter ).


If you will use of Kinor-16 SX camera with modified crystal sync motor, and modern DAT recorder, you will have full sinchronization of film and sound track.


If you will need start-stop marks on sound track, you can turn on of buzzer of motor.
The buzzer will send signal from time of start of motor until of speed of camera will have crystal sync speed.
You can use this signal like start marks on sound track.
The buzzer will send signal from time of send signal of stop camera until of electronic of motor set mirror disk on fixed position. You can use this signal like stop mark on sound track.

If you wish less volume of noise , you can use external soft cover ( sound blimp ) with camera.


If you not need marks on sound track, you can turn off a buzzer of motor.
You can send additional question or request about additional information on my direct e-mail olex@a-teleport.com




Olex, your modified Kinor motor looks very interesting. Are you currently offering this modification or selling these?


Yes, of course, I modify of Kinor motor and can propose a few versions of modification of original 29EPSS motor with analog speed control and a few versions of modifictaions of 29EPSS motor with crystal sync microprocessor controller.

We design a new versions of microporcessor controllers and i will inform about new versions of modifictaions of 29EPSS motor ( and motors of Konvas cameras ) on future too.

From oteher side, this is microprocessor PID controller can upgrade of electropnics of other cine cameras too. I can connect optical endoder on motor shaft and cine camera will have multi speed crystal sync motor.
But, this is DC motor must be compatible with PWM speed control.
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#10 Ole Dost

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 11:32 AM

I record sound as I shoot with the Kinor. I use a Marantz PMD660. Here's a sample of a scene with this method.

http://plaza.ufl.edu...ta/dialogue.mp4


Hi Evan,
I can´t download your sample somehow... For this reason a question: Is the sound quality of the Marantz PMD660 comperable to DAT? Same Quality? Better? Worse? I´m considering buying one, but I know little about sound equipment...
Best regards,
Ole
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#11 Evan Kubota

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 01:55 PM

Save the file from the link and play in QuickTime 7 or above...


The sound quality from the PMD660 is quite good and probably comparable to a good DAT. Obviously your mic placement and mic quality are far more important than the recorder. I don't think the PMD660's quality is limiting. If you're using a Sony D8 or similar this is probably a good replacement.
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#12 Richardson Leao

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 09:53 PM

I have a kinor modified by Olexandr and it's the best thing you can do to yours. Also, I do sound sync with my laptop using the sync pulse from the camera (wireless and for less than 50$), if you are interested, you can check my page and I could help you with the assembling (http://jcsmr.anu.edu.au/~rleao/
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#13 Ole Dost

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 04:11 PM

Save the file from the link and play in QuickTime 7 or above...
The sound quality from the PMD660 is quite good and probably comparable to a good DAT. Obviously your mic placement and mic quality are far more important than the recorder. I don't think the PMD660's quality is limiting. If you're using a Sony D8 or similar this is probably a good replacement.


Hello Evan,
Now i have been able to listen to the dialogue. I don´t understand Japanese, but the sound quality is geat. You really did it with a Kinor?
What is the microphone you have been using (as you write about the importance of the microphone...)
Best regards,
Ole
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#14 Evan Kubota

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 02:53 AM

Hello Evan,
Now i have been able to listen to the dialogue. I don´t understand Japanese, but the sound quality is geat. You really did it with a Kinor?
What is the microphone you have been using (as you write about the importance of the microphone...)
Best regards,
Ole


Thanks. The mic was an AKG C1000S. I bought it for about $90 used on eBay. I think new they are $150-200. Yes, the whole film was shot with a Kinor. In that sequence it was about twenty feet from the actors and the mic was placed as close as possible without being visible in the frame. This is the key to getting clean sound even with a camera that is not whisper quiet.
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#15 Ole Dost

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 05:33 PM

Thanks. The mic was an AKG C1000S. I bought it for about $90 used on eBay. I think new they are $150-200. Yes, the whole film was shot with a Kinor. In that sequence it was about twenty feet from the actors and the mic was placed as close as possible without being visible in the frame. This is the key to getting clean sound even with a camera that is not whisper quiet.


Thank you for the information. Is the film availible somewhere? I´m quiet curious to see the capability of my good Kinor in a real movie...
Ole
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#16 Vadim Trofymenko

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

I record sound as I shoot with the Kinor. I use a Marantz PMD660. Here's a sample of a scene with this method.

http://plaza.ufl.edu...ta/dialogue.mp4


Can't play video you linked. Could you please repost video again?
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#17 Mark Dunn

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

The thread is over 6 years old.
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