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First Outdoor Framegrab... Take Two


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#1 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:03 AM

http://www.dvxuser.c...ead.php?t=76900

*Sigh* Still no 12 bit original, but a second 8 bit incarnation with... less clipping.
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:29 AM

http://www.dvxuser.c...ead.php?t=76900

*Sigh* Still no 12 bit original, but a second 8 bit incarnation with... less clipping.


Hi Gavin,

Looks much better! Any reason that 8 bit is thought to be good enough?

Stephen
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#3 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 06:02 AM

Hi Gavin,

Looks much better! Any reason that 8 bit is thought to be good enough?

Stephen


Maybe they just don't care about our opinion. And when I say "our" I don't mean you and me, I mean the human race. It is a possibility. It could be the only logical conclusion. Perhaps it's not so much they're witholding something, as just not being bothered to show us?

- Gavin
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#4 Nate Downes

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 06:40 AM

Looks better according to both the wife and I. But, only 8 bit? Hell, the DSLR I'm buying this winter is 22 bit.
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#5 Häakon

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 06:54 AM

Looks better according to both the wife and I. But, only 8 bit? Hell, the DSLR I'm buying this winter is 22 bit.

Say it with me now: p r e - p r o d u c t i o n s a m p l e. . .

And, "hell," the DSLR world has always been a step ahead of digital motion picture for obvious reasons. You also know that RED shoots better than 8 bit; they haven't released any direct RAW footage yet. Take a deep breath.
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 08:24 AM

Say it with me now: p r e - p r o d u c t i o n s a m p l e. . .

And, "hell," the DSLR world has always been a step ahead of digital motion picture for obvious reasons. You also know that RED shoots better than 8 bit; they haven't released any direct RAW footage yet. Take a deep breath.


Hi Häakon,

Red have asked for feedbck from us here, so why are people so negative when we give it?

Stephen
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#7 Richard Boddington

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 09:55 AM

Hi Häakon,

Red have asked for feedbck from us here, so why are people so negative when we give it?

Stephen


Stephen,

That's hitting the nail on the head to say the least!!! BINGO!

If they didn't want any negative feedback they could have kept the entire project under wraps until it was 100% complete and sitting on the store shelves.

R,
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#8 Chris Kenny

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 10:39 AM

While I'd also be really interested in seeing the 12-bit 4K original image, it's understandable that RED might not be comfortable with people seeing it yet. The demosaicing software, etc. is still in (apparently very active) development; there's no dead pixel correction, noise reduction, etc. If they post 8-bit downscaled JPEGs, it makes it very clear to everyone they shouldn't be drawing too many conclusions about the final output. It lets them show people something without having to put all their cards on the table before they're ready.
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#9 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 11:21 AM

Chris is right about active development (and late nights). We're still doing a lot of fine tuning on the RAW conversion software, hence the much better image Jim posted after people said "um - nice, but what's up with... " etc. on the original. We're very happy to take constructive criticism, but people have got to remember it's a project in development. Sure it would be lovely for us to give out RAW 12bit images, but it's just not practical for us to do that, for many reasons. Similarly, no other camera company gives even the level of early imagery that we've managed to get out. Usually, the first time you see moving images is when the camera is complete and it's in the hands of a reviewer.

So, yes the original RAW data is 12bit. But I must take to task the comment about a 22bit DLSR. I'm sorry, but it doesn't exist. The best medium format backs still only give out 14bit data (probably embedded in 16bits).

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#10 Sam Wells

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 11:23 AM

Hi Häakon,

Red have asked for feedbck from us here, so why are people so negative when we give it?

Stephen



It seems they re graded it based on comments made here though :D


-Sam
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#11 Richard Boddington

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 11:51 AM

Chris is right about active development (and late nights). We're still doing a lot of fine tuning on the RAW conversion software, hence the much better image Jim posted after people said "um - nice, but what's up with... " etc. on the original. We're very happy to take constructive criticism, but people have got to remember it's a project in development. Sure it would be lovely for us to give out RAW 12bit images, but it's just not practical for us to do that, for many reasons. Similarly, no other camera company gives even the level of early imagery that we've managed to get out. Usually, the first time you see moving images is when the camera is complete and it's in the hands of a reviewer.

So, yes the original RAW data is 12bit. But I must take to task the comment about a 22bit DLSR. I'm sorry, but it doesn't exist. The best medium format backs still only give out 14bit data (probably embedded in 16bits).

Graeme


Graeme,

I thought Jim announced that DVX was the official forum for Red?

I'm not trying to provoke you, don't get upset, I'm just asking a simple question based on what I thought he said.

R,
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#12 Stephen Williams

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 12:33 PM

Graeme,

I thought Jim announced that DVX was the official forum for Red?

I'm not trying to provoke you, don't get upset, I'm just asking a simple question based on what I thought he said.

R,


Richard,

Thats right, but as Sam pointed out they are listening to what we are saying.

FWIW I spent half a day yesterday visiting other forums in search of more Red knowledge, my conclusion was the best place for real information was here!

Stephen
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#13 Tenolian Bell

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 01:42 PM

Similarly, no other camera company gives even the level of early imagery that we've managed to get out.


Its statement like this that fuel heavy speculation and criticism.

Stop marketing it to us, let it speak for itself.
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#14 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 02:42 PM

Its statement like this that fuel heavy speculation and criticism.

Stop marketing it to us, let it speak for itself.


Yup. Pretty much agree.
But it boils down to:
Do we want to see work in progress _always_ labeled as such and muse over the progress, or do we not?

The developing team has all the arguments as stuff is "yet not finished", and frankly I think that's quite ok. I would much rather see samples of work in progress, than not.

And these statements particulary fuel critisism when one does not manage to read the "warning, this is not yet finished" signs that have been over most (if not all) of the posts I've seen from the developers.

Is it marketing?
Do they build a David vs Goliath sales myth?
Are these a gang of people with some record on other fields than building cameras, but have never actually done that before?
Do they portrait the image of a cool gang basically having fun, smoking cigars, driving nice cars and being served by beautifull females?

Sure!
I'm on the list!
Hooray.

But please show me a company that is not hyping their products. AND having success.

Have they ever made any promises except for the return of a deposit?
Not AFAIK

And even though I'd like to think that I'd become a bilionaire and a friend of cool guys through buying the camera, I seriously doubt that this is going to be the case. So what?

Given that the images we've seen so far actually comes from Frankie (which I think is the case), it shouldn't be too hard to look beyond this marketing hype and see that these guys actually work hard. If the image "only" gets on par with a decent DSLR like the D1, - or even the D-200 (Heck I'd settle for D50-like images from a digital video cam! I guess that means that I'm exposed!) I - for one - shall not complain .

They are enthusiastic and portray themselves as a "mad gang" and certainly they're very concious on the good marketing value in the "doing the undoable" story. Combined with hip images of Jim and funny images of his and Oaklys possesions (not to mention the totally unheard of images of good looking girls and not so good looking website owners doing ridiculous childish stuff in front of cameras)

But seriously: They're letting us in on the fun, and as long as they let us understand and we understand that this is a tricky road towards what might be a good tool - if it ever wraps, we can either choose to look at those images with all reservations attatched, or we can choose to ignore them untill the finished product is here... or they're run out of business.

AFAIK all options are open to this day.

Jim Jannard is not the first, second or third coming of whomever.
But he dares to stick his neck out and he's obviously good at hiring people.

For the Red

I think it's gonna show up. Hopefully next year.
But that's only my 2c, and I know it has not been promised to me.

Gunleik

Edited by Gunleik Groven, 03 November 2006 - 02:44 PM.

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#15 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 02:54 PM

Doublepost. Sorry!

Gunleik

Edited by Gunleik Groven, 03 November 2006 - 02:56 PM.

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#16 Gavin Greenwalt

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:37 PM

I just want to clarify: I wasn't criticizing the RED Team for *not* posting 12bit footage. I can completely understand a team not wanting to spread prototype footage. But the more information they give us, the more helpful we can be. As far as I see it RED doesn't "owe" me anything, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

- Gavin
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#17 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:12 PM

Jim is monitoring dvxuser.com, dvinfo.net and working directly with the likes of Warner Bros., David Fincher, Peter Jackson, David Stump and Otto Nemenz for direction and feedback. There is no "official" RED board.

One of the nice things about taking feedback from the raw conversion, is that we can show how RAW works - so much nicer to decide how to process that image in post, rather than make a mistake in camera and burn in a certain look.

Graeme
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#18 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:30 PM

Jim is monitoring dvxuser.com, dvinfo.net and working directly with the likes of Warner Bros., David Fincher, Peter Jackson, David Stump and Otto Nemenz for direction and feedback. There is no "official" RED board.

The first part we already knew, the second one, we could guess but these names are really good and last news.
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#19 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 10:35 PM

The first part we already knew, the second one, we could guess but these names are really good and last news.

I am not suprised, great talent will always want to be on the edge of development.
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#20 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 08:44 AM

I am not suprised, great talent will always want to be on the edge of development.

Like I said, we could guess but I agree.
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