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Arri 2perf


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#1 Max Jacoby

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:05 PM

Arri will be offering 2 perf movements for their Arricams and the 235.
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#2 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 04:20 PM

Finally. And I must pat myself on the back somewhat - I predicted the comeback of Techniscope when I first became a member on this board in 1998. And it now looks like it might happen. Which either proves my astute insights into the future, or simply the fact that if you repeat stuff ad nauseum long enough like a demented madman, they eventually will become true by the shear passage of time. :D :P
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#3 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 04:43 PM

My money's on the latter.... ;)
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#4 Chris Burke

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 06:28 PM

Arri will be offering 2 perf movements for their Arricams and the 235.




This is great news. Where did you here or see it? I have poked around the web a bit and have not found any info. I will keep looking, just curious what your source is.




Chris
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#5 Nathan Milford

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 08:13 PM

This is great news. Where did you here or see it? I have poked around the web a bit and have not found any info. I will keep looking, just curious what your source is.
Chris



Eric Johnston of ARRI in Blauvelt mentioned the 2-perf movement at the SMPTE NY meeting for the new 16mm cameras a few months back.
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#6 Trevor Greenfield

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:26 AM

Can someone tell me why this very economical format died?
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:50 AM

Can someone tell me why this very economical format died?


It died because it was developed by Technicolor Italia in the early 1960's (hence the name Techniscope) and the process was coupled with Technicolor's dye transfer printing process, which minimized the build-up in graininess from the blow-up from 2-perf to 4-perf anamorphic by going "direct to matrix" (2-perf 35mm color neg going directly to 4-perf 35mm anamorphic b&w positive "matrices" for making scope dye transfer prints.) And Technicolor apparently offered some sort of discount on the whole process to users of Techniscope. So 2-perf users got lower costs plus decent quality scope prints.

When Technicolor decided to kill the dye transfer process due to a decline in release print orders in the mid 1970's (the majority of costs in dye transfer printing was creating the matrices, so high print orders were necessary to make it worthwhile), people shooting 2-perf had to resort to the color IP/IN optical printer method of making a blow-up, and then making Eastmancolor prints -- resulting in higher costs and more grain in the image, making the format less appealing. Plus this was the beginning of a decline in shooting movies in 2.35 for awhile, in order to make them more friendly for TV.

And unfortunately the format died just before all the modern small sync-sound cameras were introduced like the Panaflex and Arri-BL.

Remember that the 1970's was a time when a major release might only make 500 prints, whereas now it's more like 4000 or 6000. While this might argue for bringing back dye transfer printing, unfortunately the process needs about a month to create and time the matrices, and modern studios are used to accelerated post schedules where multiple IN's are delivered to multiple labs just two weeks before the release date to punch out and ship thousands of prints.
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#8 Max Jacoby

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 05:35 AM

I'm in Munich at the moment, so I passed by Arri on Friday for quite a long chat.

They actually told me about a very interesting experiment they made: they shot 2 perf with an anamorphic lens rotated by 90 degrees (in effect gettig a 4 perf picture onto 2 perfs). When they compared it to regular 4 perf, they were suprised to find that the 2 perf looked better.
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#9 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 12:16 PM

I sound like an insufferable know-it-all-type, but that was an idea I had, too. It's great, because it makes Techniscope 4x3 proof as well. I also had an idea of 1-perf pulldown with an anmorphic turned sideways as to create a 2.35:1 image with half as much footage going through the camera compared to 2-perf. Where you'd be able to telecine it, I have no idea.... :blink: :D
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#10 Stephen Williams

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:09 PM

I sound like an insufferable know-it-all-type, but that was an idea I had, too. It's great, because it makes Techniscope 4x3 proof as well. I also had an idea of 1-perf pulldown with an anmorphic turned sideways as to create a 2.35:1 image with half as much footage going through the camera compared to 2-perf. Where you'd be able to telecine it, I have no idea.... :blink: :D


Hi Adam,

I remember you mentioning that before!

Stephen
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#11 Max Jacoby

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 02:29 PM

Actually I mentioned the 1 perf option to Arri ;)

44 mins running time on each mag is pretty cool.
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#12 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 02:49 PM

It's ideas like this that will keep film a viable option. Let's hope they keep coming. :)
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#13 Trevor Greenfield

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 06:33 PM

Thank you, David! Much to learn about this format. I assume the IP/IN stage has improved as well as blowups to the point of making it a viable alternative since the 70's. Because if we're talking about blowing up from s16 vs. 2 perf (which should be about the same in price), obviously i'd want the 2 perf which should have twice the res anyway.
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:50 PM

Thank you, David! Much to learn about this format. I assume the IP/IN stage has improved as well as blowups to the point of making it a viable alternative since the 70's.


Yes, but really it is doing the blow-up digitally that has made 2-perf more viable now.
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#15 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 03:19 PM

And unfortunately the format died just before all the modern small sync-sound cameras were introduced like the Panaflex and Arri-BL.


& Kodak was introducing the finer grained sharper ECNII process with 5247.

one of the discounts was charging the same for the blow up dailies as for 4-p contact dailies.

It would be ironic if Panavision offered 2-p cameras.

Edited by Leo Anthony Vale, 13 November 2006 - 03:20 PM.

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#16 chris dye

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 12:56 AM

Will this be available for the Arri's before or after the Penelope (supposedly Sept. 2007)?

I myself have been inquiring about and hoping for a Techniscope comeback as far back as 1999. It's an awesome format and makes some sense to revive it.
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#17 Trevor Greenfield

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:03 AM

Yes, but really it is doing the blow-up digitally that has made 2-perf more viable now.



That was my other thought. If you're doing a DI anyway, its an automatic slash on budget. Or maybe if you're shooting a feature witha lot of footage, the savings in the stock might pay at least most of the DI line on the budget. Either way I really hope this takes off (I mean soon, I need it!)
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#18 Arni Heimir

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:45 AM

Why doesn't Arri also resurrect Vistavision? Honestly, I think that it would be the answer to the 65mm nostaglia.

I'm in Munich at the moment, so I passed by Arri on Friday for quite a long chat.

They actually told me about a very interesting experiment they made: they shot 2 perf with an anamorphic lens rotated by 90 degrees (in effect gettig a 4 perf picture onto 2 perfs). When they compared it to regular 4 perf, they were suprised to find that the 2 perf looked better.


I don't understand how that would make sense. How can 2-perf have more resolution than 4-perf? I am assuming the 2-perf anamorphic went thru a DI and the 4-perf didn't.

I am sure Sergio Leone is being reincarnated into these new gates (Deux ex machina (spelling?))

But I am truly excited about this new development. Maybe Arri has a new 35mm camera coming out this year and or a smaller and lighter digital camera. Who knows, maybe hell has frozen over and they are developing a anamorphic lens line.
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#19 Max Jacoby

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:25 AM

Who knows, maybe hell has frozen over and they are developing a anamorphic lens line.

Unfortunately they won't. I have enquired many times about this and the answer is still negative. There just is not a big enough market for this.
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#20 Emmanuel Lariviere

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 07:58 AM

Actually I mentioned the 1 perf option to Arri ;)

44 mins running time on each mag is pretty cool.


Max, that would be awesome. It would really make a lot of people, who think that digital is their only option, reconsider their plans.
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