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#1 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:37 AM

hello everybody,

i'm gonna light for an entry for this year's kodak student commercial award and i have a few questions i'd like to submit to you. we'll shoot s16 mm, i've chosen the 7217 200t since i've already use it once and i was happy with the results. basically, given the nature of the commercial, my main set-up is meant to be for a beauty shot and that's how i'm planning for that:

1 pup for the 3/4 frontal key diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/4 cto
1 pup for the fill diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/8 cto
1 kino flo t (4 banks 4ft) from the camera
1 ringlight from the camera
272 soft gold reflectors all around in the background
1 dedo for backlight/hairlight

im gonna get some 188 cosmetic highlight gel as well but i'm not sure i'm gonna use it

for what concerns the filter, i'd like to use either the tiffen warm soft/fx3 or the tiffen gold diffusion/fx 5. according to your experience are there any specific issues related to those filters that i should take into consideration? i guess f-5.6 should be an appropriate stop to use this filters, right?

one of the ladies in the cast has red hair, pale skin tone and flecks, another one is black, they will be together in the final shot, how to light them both? i guess i have to expose for the black lady, probably half a stop over, correct?

finally, have you got any suggestion for the pack shot? it is a soap from a quite famous cosmetics company...
thanks a lot,

vincenzo
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#2 Jaxon Bridge

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 12:49 PM

1 pup for the 3/4 frontal key diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/4 cto
1 pup for the fill diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/8 cto
1 kino flo t (4 banks 4ft) from the camera
1 ringlight from the camera
272 soft gold reflectors all around in the background
1 dedo for backlight/hairlight


Wow, I wish I knew what some of these terms mean. If anyone could either point me to a place that explains "frontal", "pup", "1/4 cto", "ringlight", "dedo", or provide definitions here, it sure would help me learn.

Jaxon

Edited by Jaxon Bridge, 13 November 2006 - 12:51 PM.

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#3 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:06 PM

for what concerns the filter, i'd like to use either the tiffen warm soft/fx3 or the tiffen gold diffusion/fx 5. according to your experience are there any specific issues related to those filters that i should take into consideration? i guess f-5.6 should be an appropriate stop to use this filters, right?


I would shy away from placing any filters over your lens. Less glass is always better. You're already using a couple of CTO's in your lighting setup. If you want an even warmer and softer look, just get a couple of darker CTO's and diffuse your lights to soften up your actors. The diffused light on your actors with the sharp undiffused lighting in the background might give them more presence on the screen.

The amount of lights you're using for one setup seems like a lot of over kill. I hope you're not planning on having all of those on just one person at one time. The Kinoflo & ringlight being used at the same time with your CTO gelled key & fill lights was what threw me a bit.

Maybe you need explain your setup a bit more, what lights for what shot, etc.
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#4 Vedran Rapo

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:08 PM

Wow, I wish I knew what some of these terms mean. If anyone could either point me to a place that explains "frontal", "pup", "1/4 cto", "ringlight", "dedo", or provide definitions here, it sure would help me learn.

Jaxon


i would say,
fontal - main light
pup - ?
1/4 cto - same as 3/4 ... it is about a position of the light
dedo - short for dedolight (a type of reflector :) )

hope i helped a bit :)
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#5 John Holland

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:18 PM

Pup , a 500/750 watt fresnal lamp . Havent seen one for a long time , does seem to me a danger of to many lamps here !! . John Holland , London.
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#6 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:19 PM

i would say,
fontal - main light
pup - ?
1/4 cto - same as 3/4 ... it is about a position of the light
dedo - short for dedolight (a type of reflector :) )

hope i helped a bit :)


1/4 Cto is not the same as 3/4. It is Color Temperature Orange gel, used for converting 5600k light to 3200k in varying strengths.

A dedolight is not a reflector either. Dedolight.com should tell you what you want to know.

a Pup is a small tungsten fresnel 650w - 1000w
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#7 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:28 PM

The amount of lights you're using for one setup seems like a lot of over kill. I hope you're not planning on having all of those on just one person at one time. The Kinoflo & ringlight being used at the same time with your CTO gelled key & fill lights was what threw me a bit.

Maybe you need explain your setup a bit more, what lights for what shot, etc.


well, the kinos are just in case i need an extra bit of exposure cause, because of the filter, i'd like to shoot at 5.6 or 8 but i was considering them just for safety. i think i'll stick to the two 1ks - by the way don't you think that the chimeras would be enough for diffusion? - and the ringlight just for the eyelight.

however why you think i'd not use the filter? as far as i know those filters are not too "heavy" and i thought they could work for a commercial, but i'm very opened to suggestion from you guys who have much more experience then me.
thanks

v
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#8 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:41 PM

however why you think i'd not use the filter? as far as i know those filters are not too "heavy" and i thought they could work for a commercial


It's a personal preference of mine. If I'm in a studio, where the environment is 100% controllable, and I have full control over what my lights do, chances are I'm not going to put anymore glass on my lens. Unless I'm trying to achieve a dramatic color shift in my overall image.

Do as much as you can with your lighting scheme, then if you feel the gold diffusion filter on the lens will help, by all means do as you will.

Oh, and you're right about the chimeras. I hadn't noted that in my previous posting. But those 1k's should get you into the 5.6 neighborhood if they're just beauty shots and you can get the lights as close to the actor as you need them.

Also, always, if you have the ability, shoot a couple tests and see what difference filters make in your image.

Edited by Jonathan Bowerbank, 13 November 2006 - 02:43 PM.

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#9 Chad Stockfleth

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:47 PM

hehehe...lots of term butchering here ;-)

just keep in mind that you are already warming up quite a bit with the lighting and the softlights and if you put a filter in front of the lens you are going to be stuck with that. might be best to leave it for the posting process if you want to go any warmer/softer because you can always go forwards, but not backwards.

also, depending on the positioning of your key and fill, you may not need the ringlight for the eyes, unless you are going for a particular shape of highlight or something like that. a nice trick is to take your two chimeras and position one just over the top of your lens, and one just below....it provides a nice glowing beauty light and makes nice reflections in the eyes. you asked if the chimera's are not soft enough, it is not uncommon to put a piece of diffusion in front of the chimera, also, putting the two of them close together so they act as one source will make them softer.

kinos seem like overkill....why shooting for an 5.6 or 8? shallower depth of field is usually considered more "beautiful" but whatever floats your boat.
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#10 Vedran Rapo

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 05:01 PM

1/4 Cto is not the same as 3/4. It is Color Temperature Orange gel, used for converting 5600k light to 3200k in varying strengths.

A dedolight is not a reflector either. Dedolight.com should tell you what you want to know.

a Pup is a small tungsten fresnel 650w - 1000w



thx very much for that ...
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#11 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:45 PM

Get the producers to spend money on the "Glam squad"

i.e. Get excellent make up artists

Ring lights etc can only do so much

thanks

Rolfe
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#12 Chris Keth

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:14 PM

one of the ladies in the cast has red hair, pale skin tone and flecks, another one is black, they will be together in the final shot, how to light them both? i guess i have to expose for the black lady, probably half a stop over, correct?

finally, have you got any suggestion for the pack shot? it is a soap from a quite famous cosmetics company...
thanks a lot,

vincenzo


You could just light the two women separately. It's more work but it will yield superior results.

As for the product shot, look up some of their ads online and see what the ad photographers generally do. Companies like product shots to be of a similar style to there aren't more than one image of their product conflicting for memory space in consumers.
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#13 Ken Minehan

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:45 PM

hello everybody,

i'm gonna light for an entry for this year's kodak student commercial award and i have a few questions i'd like to submit to you. we'll shoot s16 mm, i've chosen the 7217 200t since i've already use it once and i was happy with the results. basically, given the nature of the commercial, my main set-up is meant to be for a beauty shot and that's how i'm planning for that:

1 pup for the 3/4 frontal key diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/4 cto
1 pup for the fill diffused with a chimera video pro small with 1/8 cto
1 kino flo t (4 banks 4ft) from the camera
1 ringlight from the camera
272 soft gold reflectors all around in the background
1 dedo for backlight/hairlight

im gonna get some 188 cosmetic highlight gel as well but i'm not sure i'm gonna use it

for what concerns the filter, i'd like to use either the tiffen warm soft/fx3 or the tiffen gold diffusion/fx 5. according to your experience are there any specific issues related to those filters that i should take into consideration? i guess f-5.6 should be an appropriate stop to use this filters, right?

one of the ladies in the cast has red hair, pale skin tone and flecks, another one is black, they will be together in the final shot, how to light them both? i guess i have to expose for the black lady, probably half a stop over, correct?

finally, have you got any suggestion for the pack shot? it is a soap from a quite famous cosmetics company...
thanks a lot,

vincenzo


Hello, I have a question with regards your framing. Are the 2 models framed in a long shot, from head to toe? If so, i dont think your Dedo backlight will not be enough since you're working with f5.6-f8.
I think, the more light you have doesn't necessarily mean it will be more beautiful.
Recently i was shooting a washing detergent TV commercial in Singapore. The scene was a mother sitting on a couch and relaxing while the dirty clothes kept pilling up.
Anyway, i wanted a very soft feel with a subtle hairlight. I kept my lighting very simple, and i was pleased with the effect. This is what I did:
Shooting with Kodak 250D Vision 2.
4kw HMI from one side diffused with a grid cloth. We built a basic minimalist living room set in a white studio, so the bounce off the walls almost took care of the rest. Then i had a 1.2kw HMI on the Back ground to seperate the actor from the back wall. Had 1kw with full CTB and 252 for her hair light. and a few other smaller lights to highlight certian props in the set.

I was working on f5.6. But i ND down to get 2.8.

I think for beauty and soft feel, a shallower depth is recommended.

I hope this helps.
Ken Minehan
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#14 ephraim

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 06:01 AM

What's 252?


Ephraim Smith
Electrician
Utah

Edited by ephraim, 16 November 2006 - 06:02 AM.

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#15 Alex Wuijts

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 10:27 AM

What's 252?
Ephraim Smith
Electrician
Utah


That's Lee 1/8 White Diffusion. A quarter is 251, half is 250 and full is 216.
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#16 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 08:42 PM

thank you all for the precious advises, actually i've been working with production designer and director to finalise the shooting that's where we got:

basically im gonna have a very simple background, on a thin paper that ill be able to light from behind (with a kino 4 bank). starting from the top the colour is aqua blue then it "tones down" to white at the very bottom. it's gonna be round with not sharp angles, i'll put 2 soft gold reflectors (6'x6' should be enough) on the 3/4 back (each sides) to get a soft separation for the actresses.

for the frontal key i'll follow chad's advise so i'l position the two 1k with chimeras below and on top of the camera. dedolight for the hairlight. i finally got the storyboard and i feel rleased cause we dont have wide shots, the shots are all gonna be close ups and medium cus. the models wont show together so i'll have the chance to fine tuning the lighting for each of them. the campaign should emphasise the message of pure, natural beauty i think this should be enough. my last concern regards the wardrobe, what kind of colors would you suggest?
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#17 Markus Kloiber

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:06 PM

Try this. i Used this on a commercial:

toplight: 4 5K(desisti) softlights through 20x20 with Full Grid
full frontal light next to camera (left): 5K with a large daylight chimera
...and a Wall-O-Lite on camera light...(basically just a glimpse)

approx. 8 meters behind and slightly off from the full frontal 5K-
a 20K through a 20x20 frame with Lightgrid...

all in all a F 5.6 on the same stock you're using.

to accentuate the shoulders you would have to use something stronger than the dedos, of course.

good luck
cheers,
Markus

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