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Multiple images on 16mm film?


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#1 james donovan

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 08:29 AM

Hi, I was just wondering whether there is a contraption that allows you to film multiple images on 16mm film, but with each shot composed into compartments -

Posted Image

take this image that artist Gordon Matta Clark made of a house with independent photographs for rooms collaged together.

Does anybody have any idea as to how to collage an image like this, with different shots making up the one image?

I think if I used my bolex I would have to do alot of rewinding etc, but any ideas would be fantastic, thanks,

(ps i hope i explained myself ok)

Edited by Damo, 18 November 2006 - 08:31 AM.

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#2 Glenn Brady

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:37 AM

The best way to achieve this effect is with an optical printer and a set of masks. With a JK-103 printer and Bolex H16 RX DS8 camera I owned in the 1970s, I was able to insert four separate moving images in a 16mm frame. It might be possible to achieve something similar using masks in a matte box, but I've not tried it (the Bolex COPEN and COZOM matte box kits were typically supplied with a set of masks).
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#3 james donovan

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:58 AM

The best way to achieve this effect is with an optical printer and a set of masks. With a JK-103 printer and Bolex H16 RX DS8 camera I owned in the 1970s, I was able to insert four separate moving images in a 16mm frame. It might be possible to achieve something similar using masks in a matte box, but I've not tried it (the Bolex COPEN and COZOM matte box kits were typically supplied with a set of masks).


thanks for the info - you owned a jk printer? that must have been great. i think I will try the matte box idea out for starters- but do you think that the lines will be defined or fuzzy/hazy?
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#4 Zachary Vex

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 08:22 PM

the easiest way to experiment with it is to use a regular 8mm camera and shoot the first half with the camera right side up, then the second half with the camera upside down, keeping in mind that it will be running backwards in the projector (or transfer.)

when developing, specify "DO NOT SPLIT, RETURN AS 16MM" on the instructions and packaging. now you can project it and see four windows on the screen, the ones on the left going forward and the ones on the right going backward. it's not exactly what you were looking for but it does get you 4 images on the screen very quickly and cheaply. you could also animate every other frame with a different image... but we're talking a lot of work.

if you didn't care about flicker, you could project 4 different movies onto one flat white surface and shoot that again on film or video.
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#5 Herb Montes

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 07:58 AM

I did this once with a Beaulieu which had a power rewind. I cut a disc out of black posterboard to fit my lens hood and then cut a quarter segment out of it. I filmed four different scenes with the opening at different angles rewinding between scenes. I got an interesting effect when I rotated the lens hood during one scene causing the open segment to sweep over and overlap the adjacent scene in the frame. You can make such a mask less fuzzy by shooting with more light and closing the aperture to increase the depth of field.

Edited by Herb Montes, 21 November 2006 - 07:58 AM.

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#6 james donovan

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 02:00 PM

these are good ideas - i like the idea of having regular 8mm on 16mm sounds interesting - would there be 2 images one right way up and the other the right way round, or would there be 4?
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#7 jacob thomas

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 05:54 PM

these are good ideas - i like the idea of having regular 8mm on 16mm sounds interesting - would there be 2 images one right way up and the other the right way round, or would there be 4?


Four images two right way up playing forwards (one one frame ahead of the other), the other two upside down playing backwards (one one frame ahead of the other).

That's the point of shooting once with the camera the right way up and the second time with the camera upside down. Then you have four images all the right way up but two playing backwards one frame apart and two playing forwards one frame apart.

the easiest way to experiment with it is to use a regular 8mm camera and shoot the first half with the camera right side up, then the second half with the camera upside down


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#8 Pawel Saladziak

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:30 AM

Well, I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, but if so, then the easiest way would be to do a composition in computer based on scanned frames.

1. Shooting different places.
2. Prepare static image layout for placing live footage during compositing procedure plus eventually stattic masks for some places if you want to have for example a rat walking under the floor of the second floor
3. compose the shoots together

If you are able to have your shooting scanned or telecined (its much ceapper but the effect is not so good) then I can compose this on my system for free ;-).

regards
Pawel
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#9 Michael Collier

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 02:28 PM

That doesnt appear to be something you can replicate completely in camera. If you notice, there are several vanishing points. Each room seems to be centered in a wider angle lens, filling frame. If you were to try doing it all in camera, they would all share similar vanishing points, and would not have the same distortion that picture has. If you shot each room centered in frame, full frame, then in the computer do your comp in after effects or something similar, I think you would get an effect similar to what they have. Could be very interesting, esp. if you time actors to walk out of one room and into another.
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