Jump to content


Photo

What camera for feature with Avid post


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 Steven Fierberg ASC

Steven Fierberg ASC

    New

  • Sustaining Members
  • 6 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 21 November 2006 - 08:22 PM

Hi, I'm about to do my first feature with a small DV size camera (I have mucho experience with 35mm film) - we're doing half the movie in a car, so a full, shoulder style camera is too large. But the rest of the movie is in Monument Valley, so you can imagine how much I want it to look good.
We did a test with the new Canon a1, but it turns out that Avid can't handle 24F, at least on the mac, at least for now. In my dream, I would get 24P, with a look that approximates film, or at least the HD version of the DVX100.

The director's requirements:
1. Must be editable in Avid on a Mac. FCP not acceptable.
2. Afraid of P2 cards as too cutting edge
3. Recommending 50i 1080. He has the Sony Z1. I am afraid this will look too video like.

Any recommendations? i feel as if I am caught between a rock and a hard place.

Steven Fierberg
  • 0

#2 Albert Smith

Albert Smith
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 151 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Chicago

Posted 22 November 2006 - 03:42 AM

Hi, I'm about to do my first feature with a small DV size camera (I have mucho experience with 35mm film) - we're doing half the movie in a car, so a full, shoulder style camera is too large. But the rest of the movie is in Monument Valley, so you can imagine how much I want it to look good.
We did a test with the new Canon a1, but it turns out that Avid can't handle 24F, at least on the mac, at least for now. In my dream, I would get 24P, with a look that approximates film, or at least the HD version of the DVX100.

The director's requirements:
1. Must be editable in Avid on a Mac. FCP not acceptable.
2. Afraid of P2 cards as too cutting edge
3. Recommending 50i 1080. He has the Sony Z1. I am afraid this will look too video like.

Any recommendations? i feel as if I am caught between a rock and a hard place.

Steven Fierberg

afraid of p2 cards?....Im sorry dont kill quality of a project because your afraid of new technology. P2 cards are solid state and extermely reliable, and there not that new there just new to a camera so low end...as the hvx200 is. p2 is going tobe taking over alot of stuff, just how people were afraid of dslrs and the memory cards not people are afraid of p2...the hvx200 is by far the best camera for your situation....the sony is ok but it is 60i or 50i if your in pal land. also the sonys have pretty harsh contrast and look for videoy to me, although you can do alot with cc....color reproduction is very good though. another idea is the jvc camera which is also HDV and does 24p at 720 res...I would still recomend the pany no questions ask....your director shouldnt even worry about p2 its not his problem, im assuming your very low budget but never the less as long as you have someone who is comfortable with it your fine. do some research because p2 is great. and again why does it have to be avid?....software shouldnt be a major issue, if your comfortable on AVID FCP isnt even that hard to learn at all maybe a week of messing with and you will be fine on it. If you have to use FCP for a paticular camera you should be able to.....I think its really funny you say "hd version of dvx" because that is the hvx...its a very similar camera but just way way upgraded

Edited by Jake Zalutsky, 22 November 2006 - 03:43 AM.

  • 0

#3 David Cox

David Cox
  • Sustaining Members
  • 323 posts
  • Digital Image Technician
  • london, UK

Posted 22 November 2006 - 04:07 AM

1. Must be editable in Avid on a Mac. FCP not acceptable.


I assume this is because its what he already owns? If not, then remind him that the best cuts in history were made with a razor blade so technology has nothing to do with good editing. Also he should be aware that since Apple bought FCP, there are some politics between Apple and Avid. The current thought is that Avid will update the PC versions of their software a good while before the MAC versions, meaning you might have a wider choice on a PC Avid.

2. Afraid of P2 cards as too cutting edge


I would second what Jake said. A good approach with the P2 cards is to take a laptop and possibly an external hard drive with you on the shoot. Backup your P2 data to both your laptop and your external drive and store / transport seperately. P2 stores data as MXF files, which is an open standard.

3. Recommending 50i 1080. He has the Sony Z1. I am afraid this will look too video like.

The 50i/60i will look like video at least until you deinterlace it (loosing half the resolution). However, I have to say that if you are using a camera firmly at the domestic end of the scale, image quality will suffer especially when you are asking these cameras to deal with the harsh contrasts in Monument Valley. I'm guessing budget won't allow the use of a more senior camera, but there is a reason why these cameras are so much cheaper.

David Cox
Baraka Post Production
www.baraka.co.uk
  • 0

#4 Keith Mottram

Keith Mottram
  • Sustaining Members
  • 824 posts
  • Other

Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:02 AM

a further option would be to shoot with the canon and output to a tethered deck, thus increasing quality of recording and still keeping the camera on the smaller end, whilst doing away with the post problems caused by shooting 24f.

keith
  • 0

#5 Chris Burke

Chris Burke
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1675 posts
  • Boston, MA

Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:10 AM

Hi, I'm about to do my first feature with a small DV size camera (I have mucho experience with 35mm film) - we're doing half the movie in a car, so a full, shoulder style camera is too large. But the rest of the movie is in Monument Valley, so you can imagine how much I want it to look good.
We did a test with the new Canon a1, but it turns out that Avid can't handle 24F, at least on the mac, at least for now. In my dream, I would get 24P, with a look that approximates film, or at least the HD version of the DVX100.

The director's requirements:
1. Must be editable in Avid on a Mac. FCP not acceptable.
2. Afraid of P2 cards as too cutting edge
3. Recommending 50i 1080. He has the Sony Z1. I am afraid this will look too video like.

Any recommendations? i feel as if I am caught between a rock and a hard place.

Steven Fierberg


What about Super 16 for the whole project or at least in the car. If you are sticking with HD I would choose the HVX 200 or the HDX 900. The later records to tape and seems to lie somewhere in between the HVX and the Varicam, in terms of quality. Good luck.
  • 0

#6 Thanasis Diamantopoulos

Thanasis Diamantopoulos
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 99 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • greece

Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:45 AM

HI
If you can use pany p2 use it and if you are not sure about p2 cards just get focus hard disk. btw you can use also xdcam as 350 1\2 ccd progresive mode and works perfect on avid. Ant if you have an avid liquid use jvc hd110 the best transfers to film after i tested all prosumer cameras.
  • 0

#7 Michael Schrengohst

Michael Schrengohst
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 48 posts
  • Producer

Posted 22 November 2006 - 01:47 PM

I 3rd and 4th the P2 recommendations.....
Shooting SD at this point is just shooting yourself in
the foot. Many great shooters own the HVX and
you really need to hire someone who is an expert
shooting HD......
You can post P2 on an AVID.....
But spending a dime shooting on DV because you own
the camera should not be an excuse not to shoot HD.
  • 0

#8 Steven Fierberg ASC

Steven Fierberg ASC

    New

  • Sustaining Members
  • 6 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 23 November 2006 - 11:20 PM

Thank all of you so much for your generous and excellent thoughts and advice. In this case, the director is editing the movie himself, and has simply refused to use FCP, it's not negotiable, done deal.
He has also been against P2 as too risky; I may rasie the issue again.
We did consider using the Canon G1 or HV1 with a DVCPro HD deck, it still might be a possibility, the cost is right on the edge of what we might be able to afford.
The HDX or Varicam would seem to be ideal, if not for the size, which in the car would be prohibitive.
16mm is way beyond our cost, although I agree that it would easily solve all our problems.
We are going to be looking at the XDCAM 350, it might be small enough and be a huge jump in quality. In some ways, I assume it's competition would be the HDX900 (this is harder to rent, and one rental house offered the Varicam instead at what they said would be a comparable price.
We are not considering shooting SD.

The JVC is the wild card, recommended by many, but no one I know believes it can be edited on Avid, or possibly any system, for that matter.

The director is going to be editing this himself, and there is great fear about the workflow, such as a lowly paid assistant duping P2 cards at midnight after working 16 hours. I personally believe that Panasonic has been quite arrogant about the workflow, suggesting idiotic ideas like deleting 'bad' takes in the field, and deleting outtakes and trims after the project is finished. So it makes me feel uncertain when I can't trust the manufacturer to listen to listen to professional concerns. I fear pressuring the director and producer to accept this camera system, and then be faced with a scene, or (worse) a day lost because some hard drive got dropped in shipping or a file inadvertantly deleted. I am not worried about the cards themselves, but the transfer and saving and protection of the image after leaving the cards.

Any further thoughts would be welcome, thanks so much for that which has already been offered.


gratefully,

Steven Fierberg
  • 0


Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Opal

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

Willys Widgets

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

Technodolly

CineTape

Abel Cine

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

Metropolis Post

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Tai Audio

Opal

Broadcast Solutions Inc

rebotnix Technologies

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Glidecam

CineLab

Rig Wheels Passport

CineTape

The Slider

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Willys Widgets