Jump to content


Photo

16mm question


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Chris Justus

Chris Justus

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:59 AM

It's my understanding that super16 doesn't do anything anamorphically to the negative when filming, it just crops the image to a rough approximation of 16:9 at the gate. If your intentions were to originate on film and deliver the final product digitally, couldn't you just film in standard 16mm, get a high def transfer of that 4:3 footage, and crop it to 16:9 in final cut pro? It seems like that may even be a better way to go, considering you have more lee-way in reframing any of the shots, since you have top and bottom of the image in each frame.

What do you all think?

-Chris
  • 0

#2 Nick Mulder

Nick Mulder
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1023 posts
  • Other
  • Auckland, New Zealand

Posted 27 November 2006 - 03:42 AM

It's my understanding that super16 doesn't do anything anamorphically to the negative when filming, it just crops the image to a rough approximation of 16:9 at the gate. If your intentions were to originate on film and deliver the final product digitally, couldn't you just film in standard 16mm, get a high def transfer of that 4:3 footage, and crop it to 16:9 in final cut pro? It seems like that may even be a better way to go, considering you have more lee-way in reframing any of the shots, since you have top and bottom of the image in each frame.

What do you all think?

-Chris


super 16 doesn't crop the top and bottom, it actually extends one side into the area that usually had sound or sprockets to a 'european' 1.66 ratio which is slightly taller than 16:9 ...

If you look at the different physical areas of film in the frame each method uses, you'll see super 16 has much more ... and therefore will have more grain density per given area upon transfer.
  • 0

#3 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 27 November 2006 - 03:42 AM

You are correct that S16 does not do any sort of optical stretch, but that’s where it ends.

S16 cameras have their gate widened to use the area of the film that was reserved for the soundtrack and perforations (thus S16 cameras can only use single perf film).

This results in a 20% larger negative area when compared to regular 16 and a native aspect ratio of 1.66:1 (very close to 16x9's 1.77:1)

Kodak put it best:
". . . the greater frame width of Super 16 and the need for less cropping on the top and bottom gives Super 16 a 46% increase in image area over standard 16 mm film when displayed in the wide-screen 1.85:1 ratio. This means better quality pictures from 16 mm film."

As for re-framing ability in post, it is true that if you were to letterbox reg. 16's 1.33:1 to 1.77 (or 1.85) you would have more room to shift the frame, but you are also throwing away a ton of your negative.

In S16 that is cropped to 1.77 you do have a bit of room to reframe, and to 1.85 a bit more.

The main thing you gain from shooting S16 is a better picture due to larger negative area.

EDIT-Beat me to it

Edited by Kevin_Zanit, 27 November 2006 - 03:46 AM.

  • 0

#4 Jonathan Bowerbank

Jonathan Bowerbank
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2815 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 27 November 2006 - 03:44 AM

Yup, no cropping happens when shooting Super16, which is why it's so "Super" :)
  • 0

#5 Chris Justus

Chris Justus

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 27 November 2006 - 03:45 AM

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate your help!

-Chris
  • 0

#6 Trevor Greenfield

Trevor Greenfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 162 posts
  • Director
  • North Idaho

Posted 27 November 2006 - 04:13 AM

and of course, consequently, to get a widescreen ratio such as 16x9 (1.77:1) with standard 16mm full frame, you would need to matte or crop the image down, resulting in a total of 40% less negative space used than with super 16. 40% is huge not just at standard def or high def resolutions but especially if ever considering a blowup to 35mm.
  • 0

#7 Murthy SNB

Murthy SNB
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Bangalore INDIA

Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:04 AM

and of course, consequently, to get a widescreen ratio such as 16x9 (1.77:1) with standard 16mm full frame, you would need to matte or crop the image down, resulting in a total of 40% less negative space used than with super 16. 40% is huge not just at standard def or high def resolutions but especially if ever considering a blowup to 35mm.



On the otherhand you can use anamorphic lens on regular 16mm, get a straight 35mm anamorphic
blowup release print for theatrical release, without going in to D I and other cost escalating methods

murthysnb
  • 0

#8 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:34 PM

Not really because there are no anamorphic 16mm lenses, and if you use 35mm ones the stretch will be too extreme resulting in a non-standard aspect ratio when you go to project.

I don't remember all the math, but there was a huge thread called "anamorphic 16" or something like that, do a search.
  • 0

#9 Zulkifli Yusof

Zulkifli Yusof
  • Guests

Posted 05 December 2006 - 11:23 AM

Question about framing when working in super16. While I'm aware of where my top and bottom should be when framing for 1.85, what about the sides? Should I keep it safe for 4:3 or it shouldnt matter?
  • 0


FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

Wooden Camera

Willys Widgets

Ritter Battery

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

CineLab

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

CineTape

CineLab

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Ritter Battery

Willys Widgets

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post