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super16 on the cheap?


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#1 james smyth

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:23 PM

I was wondering if anyone would know about getting a cheap super16 camera. I shot with the NPR and loved it, but they seem hard to come by, and expensive when they do. I've heard tell of modified K-3s or modified Bolexes that will do super16, but I'm afraid to buy something that has been 'modified' as a crappy job of it could ruin a good camera. Does anyone any alternatives?
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#2 alfredoparra

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:30 PM

I was wondering if anyone would know about getting a cheap super16 camera. I shot with the NPR and loved it, but they seem hard to come by, and expensive when they do. I've heard tell of modified K-3s or modified Bolexes that will do super16, but I'm afraid to buy something that has been 'modified' as a crappy job of it could ruin a good camera. Does anyone any alternatives?




you can buy a brand new super 16mm movie camera for $6000.00 includes a 9mm c-mount lens here is the link http://www.ikonoskop...llery/index.asp theres also a modification for a video tap avalible.
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#3 Sir Alvin Ekarma

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 09:49 PM

JK Camera sells refurbished S16 bolexes http://www.jkcamera....lex_h16_rex.htm at a good price. They don't come with lenses, accesories, or batteries, but you could easily get an XLR power cable from ProCam or Du-all to run it off a 12V battery, and depending on your budget, you could cobble together the rest of what you need off Ebay or just rent what you need.
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#4 Martin Yernazian

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 01:57 AM

OK....here I come...
First off all
The ikonoskop is not a a great cam... for 6000 you can easly buy an used Arriflex sr, EASLY.... not a box with a horrible lens that isn't even reflex.
but the author of this thread said he want it something cheap but good or decent ( isn't that what we all want?)

So getting to the point you should get the following cams on Super 16

Aaton LTR ( 7 or the 54 if you get any this beauties cheap and nice they will run great forever and ever)
Eclair NPR ( great solid horse, I own one and I love it )
Eclair ACL ( the great solid pony.... so the NPR's little son)
CP-16 ( I used own in the past and it almost fell apart, but I got a bad model if you find a good one you will have a cam for a long time...)
Arriflex SR ( this guys are great but expensive the same as the Aatons but if you find a decent one GET IT)

Anyway those are my 2 cents ( more like 3!)


Oh ok I forgot my fourth cent...
the K3 is a great little cam
or the Kinor
Russians made great cams and they are not as bit up as the other ones, since they where release to the world after the cold war.... and they are pretty tough and efficient

Good Luck
Best

Edited by Martín Yernazian, 05 December 2006 - 01:59 AM.

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#5 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 02:14 AM

I've seen some great stuff shot with the Kras...however, the camera's a pain in the ass to load, hardly worth the investment for the sweat and stress you'll go through loading it 1 100' spool at a time.

I'd be interested to see someone with a modified S16 version of the inexpensive "prosumer" Canon Scoopic. I'm not sure if its lens structure would allow it though. Does anyone know?
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#6 James Erd

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 04:15 AM

I've seen some great stuff shot with the Kras...however, the camera's a pain in the ass to load, hardly worth the investment for the sweat and stress you'll go through loading it 1 100' spool at a time.

I'd be interested to see someone with a modified S16 version of the inexpensive "prosumer" Canon Scoopic. I'm not sure if its lens structure would allow it though. Does anyone know?



I was looking into getting a scoopy but I haven't been able to find any one that does Super 16 conversion for them. They are great cameras but it looks like a long shot on the conversion.
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#7 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 07:31 AM

I was wondering if anyone would know about getting a cheap super16 camera.

The tricky part in conversion is to recentre the lens, it's easy and cheap to enlarge the gate on a npr or k3 and use lenses that cover S16 without recentering...SLR-lenses will do that and some other lenses from 16mm upwards... no wide-angle this way, but it's cheap...

how much is still cheap for you?

What I remember from discussions around scoopic and S16 is that it's not possible or really hard to do...
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#8 Richardson Leao

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 09:42 AM

I have a K3 with a s16 gate and M42 (pentax screw mount) that I'll be listing in ebay soon (very cheap start) as a part of my gradual move to 35mm. As mentioned, the wide angle lenses originally made for 16mm and the meteor lens that generally comes with it (if zooming bellow 20mm) will not cover the whole area of the film, however, SLR lenses will (and do), I had no problems with the camera but I prefer the 4x3 than 16x9, just etheticaly. For a cheap super16 option, I'd recommend the k3. Modifications of kinors would cost >2500$ and you would loose the beautiful 6mm prime lens.
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#9 Sir Alvin Ekarma

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 10:24 AM

I was looking into getting a scoopy but I haven't been able to find any one that does Super 16 conversion for them. They are great cameras but it looks like a long shot on the conversion.

Aranda group in Austrailia does a conversion and it's crazy expensive and kinda nuts since the lens vignettes under 25mm (as I recall; I asked them about it a while ago). I was able to get in touch w/ some folks who had it done and they said they should've have gone with something else.

And Slowmotioninc.com in Burbank will take your Kinor and convert it to a PL mount, S16 camera with modern electronics for significantly under 6k (last time I checked).
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#10 Will Montgomery

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 10:29 AM

The tricky part in conversion is to recentre the lens, it's easy and cheap to enlarge the gate on a npr or k3 and use lenses that cover S16 without recentering...SLR-lenses will do that and some other lenses from 16mm upwards... no wide-angle this way, but it's cheap...

how much is still cheap for you?

What I remember from discussions around scoopic and S16 is that it's not possible or really hard to do...

I've been after Bernie O'Doherty (www.super16inc.com) to do a S16 mod to my Scoopic MS for a while now. Its basically a nightmare to do, almost rebuilding the camera completely. Just like the K3, the lens doesn't cover the Super 16 area unless you recenter it. On top of that, the SHUTTER isn't actually big enough either which is another problem altogether and also means you have to recenter the lens. Takes a talented camera tech with a some creativity too.

He did it once a long time ago and couldn't believe the time involved. It could be upto $2000 in labor alone.

That said, an Ultra 16 mod is easily possible just by widening the gate, but its hard to find a telecine house that can handle that format (coverage goes between sprocket holes on the left).

The K3 Super 16 mod that everyone does is cheap ($200) but keep in mind that it doesn't re-center the lens, just expands the gate on the right so some strange optical effects can occur with zoom lenses (when zooming). But since its so cheap, its probably worth doing.

$400 will get you a Super 16 K3 and you can pick up some Pentax Super-Takumar M42 mount lenses pretty cheap. 28mm is easy to find, 24 would be better, and there are some great 50mm lenses as well.
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#11 Richardson Leao

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 08:56 PM

I am not selling my camera here (otherwise I would post a classified) but just in case someone is interested to see it, here it goes:

http://cgi.ebay.com....i...p;rd=1&rd=1


I've been after Bernie O'Doherty (www.super16inc.com) to do a S16 mod to my Scoopic MS for a while now. Its basically a nightmare to do, almost rebuilding the camera completely. Just like the K3, the lens doesn't cover the Super 16 area unless you recenter it. On top of that, the SHUTTER isn't actually big enough either which is another problem altogether and also means you have to recenter the lens. Takes a talented camera tech with a some creativity too.

He did it once a long time ago and couldn't believe the time involved. It could be upto $2000 in labor alone.

That said, an Ultra 16 mod is easily possible just by widening the gate, but its hard to find a telecine house that can handle that format (coverage goes between sprocket holes on the left).

The K3 Super 16 mod that everyone does is cheap ($200) but keep in mind that it doesn't re-center the lens, just expands the gate on the right so some strange optical effects can occur with zoom lenses (when zooming). But since its so cheap, its probably worth doing.

$400 will get you a Super 16 K3 and you can pick up some Pentax Super-Takumar M42 mount lenses pretty cheap. 28mm is easy to find, 24 would be better, and there are some great 50mm lenses as well.


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#12 james smyth

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 11:29 PM

That said, an Ultra 16 mod is easily possible just by widening the gate, but its hard to find a telecine house that can handle that format (coverage goes between sprocket holes on the left).


Was is the aspect ration of Ultra 16? Judging from this chart: http://www.cameraspr...ra16piconly.jpg it seems that it's shorter and wider than super16.

Is there any reason to pay for a conversion when you could just as well zoom in an crop during the telecine? I mean, with the fine grained emulsions available today, would you really be loosing that much?
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#13 James Erd

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Posted 06 December 2006 - 03:49 PM

One question that keeps popping up in my mind about Ultra 16 is: What about the edge printing? I know that on Super 16 it is on the side with the sprocket holes, but on Ultra 16 you are exposing into sprocket areas on both sides of the film. Also don't you have to crop the top and bottom of each frame to avoid seeing the corners of the sprocket holes in your print?
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#14 Stephen Williams

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:20 PM

Is there any reason to pay for a conversion when you could just as well zoom in an crop during the telecine? I mean, with the fine grained emulsions available today, would you really be loosing that much?


Hi,

I think that is the best option. Remember Ultra 16 is not supported by any manufacture, so unless you build your own post production path you may be disappointed.

Stephen
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#15 Tim Carroll

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:15 PM

I agree with Stephen. Shoot regular 16 and frame for 16:9 (tape the viewfinder if need be). Shoot Kodak Vision 2 200T (7217) and the grain won't be a problem.

See examples at this web page:

Film Clips from Box Stock Arriflex 16S & 16S/B shooting regular 16, framing 16:9


It is not difficult to frame 16:9 with regular 16.

Posted Image

Posted Image

-Tim
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#16 james smyth

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 08:03 PM

All things being equal, any reason not to buy an ultra16 camera? (assuming equal pricing) I mean, it seems that that all that changes it the width of the gate and I could still shoot regular 16.
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#17 Stephen Williams

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 04:40 AM

All things being equal, any reason not to buy an ultra16 camera? (assuming equal pricing) I mean, it seems that that all that changes it the width of the gate and I could still shoot regular 16.


Hi,

Assuming the home enthusiast who filed the gate did not screw up the camera.

Stephen
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#18 Aaron Martin (TX)

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 10:35 AM

Shoot regular 16 and frame for 16:9 (tape the viewfinder if need be).



The images look great. How did you determine the correct framing for the shots? Did you get a new viewfinder with 16:9 markings or did you tape the viewfinder using charts, etc?

Thanks,

Aaron
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#19 Tim Carroll

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 02:35 PM

The images look great. How did you determine the correct framing for the shots? Did you get a new viewfinder with 16:9 markings or did you tape the viewfinder using charts, etc?

Thanks,

Aaron


Aaron.

I aimed the camera at a 16:9 image and taped the viewfinder off while viewing the image. Then I shot a 16:9 chart using the 16:9 framing I had taped off on the viewfinder. Then I had the telecine operator frame off of the 16:9 chart at the beginning of the first roll.

I call it converting an Arriflex 16S to Super 16 for $1.69 (the cost of a roll of Scotch Magic Tape).

-Tim
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