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Equivalent System 65 set up


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#1 Lance Flores

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 07:06 PM

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:10 PM

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.


I don't understand what you mean by "everything but the camera" -- so you have a 65mm camera? What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?
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#3 Lance Flores

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:30 PM

I don't understand what you mean by "everything but the camera" -- so you have a 65mm camera? What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?


The images are being captured on a 65mm sensor. We'll begin testing in a couple of weeks using Mimaya lens setup, but I want to make sure I have enough glass for all the cameras we're going to use. The other option is to use the Super PL lens mount and rent lenses from CSC in New York.
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#4 Lance Flores

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:45 PM

<snip>
What sort of lens mount does it use? What do you mean by a "digital cinema feature"? Are you shooting in 65mm or digitally?


Sorry .. missed some of your message .. coming down with the flu. Anyway ..

The camera will mount a Mimaya lens right now.
The answer is Yes .. I'm shooting 65mm digital 4K 4:4:4.
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#5 Max Jacoby

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:47 PM

Arri have Maxi PL mount lenses for their 765. They are Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses.

What camera are you shooting on? The Phantom?
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#6 Lance Flores

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:52 PM

Arri have Maxi PL mount lenses for their 765. They are Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses.

What camera are you shooting on? The Phantom?


Yes. Have done testing on the Phantom HD. Will begin testing the Phantom 65 in a couple of weeks.

Those are excellent lenses. Do you just have one set?
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#7 Max Jacoby

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 08:56 PM

Eh, well unfortunately I don't have a set, but Arri does. When I was in Munich in September there were about 3 sets lying on the shelves. I am sure there are additional sets with CSC. They only ever build 10 cameras I think. The lenses go from 30mm fisheye to 350mm. Stops vary from T2.1 to T4.2 They also have a 36-210mm T6.3 zoom lens.
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#8 Lance Flores

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 09:08 PM

Eh, well unfortunately I don't have a set, but Arri does. When I was in Munich in September there were about 3 sets lying on the shelves. I am sure there are additional sets with CSC. They only ever build 10 cameras I think. The lenses go from 30mm fisheye to 350mm. Stops vary from T2.1 to T4.2 They also have a 36-210mm T6.3 zoom lens.


That would do it. It's tempting, but I'd hate to keep flying all that glass back and forth between shoots. We're trying to queue up three productions for next year so we're looking at purchasing all the lenses. I'll give them a call Monday. Thanks Max.
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#9 Igor Trajkovski

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 10:03 PM

What camera are you shooting on?


I wander that too...
?


Regards

Igor
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#10 Max Jacoby

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 10:51 PM

That would do it. It's tempting, but I'd hate to keep flying all that glass back and forth between shoots. We're trying to queue up three productions for next year so we're looking at purchasing all the lenses. I'll give them a call Monday. Thanks Max.

I'm not sure where you are based, but usually you don't have to pay for equipment that travels from one branch of a rental company to another. The lenses should come to New York free of charge, that's part of the service Arri offers.
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 12:42 PM

Wait, are you shooting with still or cine lenses? I shoot still photography with a Mamiya RB, so maybe I can give you some info if those are the kind of lenses you are talking about using. One thing I know from the stills world is that digital can get "fringing", weird purple circles on the picture, due to film lenses allowing light to hit the film at an angle, something which seriously confuses a sensor. You'd definitely want to test lenses before you commit to shooting with them, and watch out for flare, shoot with a long matte box, because flare tends to heighten this effect the most.

Do you mind telling us why you're shooting with medium format lenses, instead of just 35mm, or have I misread your post? You're a little vague,
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#12 Max Jacoby

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 01:35 PM

I'd be very wary about using still lenses for motion picture use. On top of the fact that the lenses might not be tele-centric like Karl says, another big issue is focus-pulling. Stills lenses are meant to be focused by hand and do not accept a follow-focus. Arri's Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses are rehoused and although they focus scale isn't as big as modern 35mm primes, they do accept a follow-focus.
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 01:36 PM

.

Do you mind telling us why you're shooting with medium format lenses, instead of just 35mm, or have I misread your post? You're a little vague,


Hi,

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

Stephen
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#14 K Borowski

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 01:46 PM

Hi,

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

Stephen


They make a 65mm sensor? When did this happen? What is it's resolution?

One other thing about Mamiya lenses, again not sure what format you'd be using, but the 6x7 lenses actually have built in iris shutters, so you'd have to lock them open to use them. With the wide angle lenses, there's actually a floating front element that has to be focused, and oh, now that I am thinking clearly, they don't actually have focus rings on them at all. They're mounted on a movable bellows and focused by racking that back and forth.

I'm not sure the area of your sensor that you'll be using, but I don't know if the 6x4.5 lenses are big enough to cover it. Your best bet then would be a cine lens, or if you must, an appropriately equipped Hasselblad lens set.

One final thing, wouldn't this post best be suited to the HD section?

Regards,

~Karl Borowski

Edited by Karl Borowski, 17 December 2006 - 01:49 PM.

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#15 Lance Flores

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 02:14 PM

They make a 65mm sensor? When did this happen? What is it's resolution?

One other thing about Mamiya lenses, again not sure what format you'd be using, but the 6x7 lenses actually have built in iris shutters, so you'd have to lock them open to use them. With the wide angle lenses, there's actually a floating front element that has to be focused, and oh, now that I am thinking clearly, they don't actually have focus rings on them at all. They're mounted on a movable bellows and focused by racking that back and forth.

I'm not sure the area of your sensor that you'll be using, but I don't know if the 6x4.5 lenses are big enough to cover it. Your best bet then would be a cine lens, or if you must, an appropriately equipped Hasselblad lens set.

One final thing, wouldn't this post best be suited to the HD section?

Regards,

~Karl Borowski


Karl these are the specs:

# 4K (4096 x 2440) resolution
# Up to 125 frames-per-second (fps) frame rate at full resolution
# Adjust frame rate in 1 fps increments
# Shutter speeds as fast as two microseconds (1/500,000 second)
# 14-bit sensor depth (42-bit color)
# 11-stop dynamic range
# ISO 600

I've only tested the HD which is their 2K version of the sensor. It uses the same cell layout as the 65. Beginning of January we'll take the Phantom 65 for a test ride to some of the Int./Ext. practical locations and also run it through some performance tests.
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#16 Max Jacoby

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 02:32 PM

35mm motion picture lenses won't cover 65mm sensor.

The 38-210mm T6.3 Cooke Zoom that Arri has for the 765 is actually a 35mm zoom (18-100mm) with an added relay system that spreads out the image to cover the 65mm format. But you lose over 2 stops in the process. Obviously the lens has to be reingraved with focus and t-stops marks.
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#17 Stephen Williams

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 02:57 PM

The 38-210mm T6.3 Cooke Zoom that Arri has for the 765 is actually a 35mm zoom (18-100mm) with an added relay system that spreads out the image to cover the 65mm format. But you lose over 2 stops in the process. Obviously the lens has to be reingraved with focus and t-stops marks.


Hi Max,

Cooke Optics are very clever, most of their zooms come in more than 1 format version.

Stephen
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#18 Max Jacoby

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 04:50 PM

I suggested to Arri that they adapt a faster zoom to 65mm, like the 17-80mm T2.2 Angénieux. You's get a stop a little over T4 out of it, which is still useable when shooting interiors. Unfortunately they won't do that until there is a genuine demand for 65mm.
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#19 chuck colburn

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 09:14 PM

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.


The Showscan 65mm lenses are rebarrled medium format lenses ranging in focal lengths from 28 to 600mm and two Cooke zooms with 2x extenders behind them making them (if I remember right) 40-120mm and 50 to 500mm. They all rotate in the proper direction on both the focus and iris rings. These lenses and any misc. support items I think are still availble from Paradisefx.com Max Penner can answer any and all questions regarding large format equipment.
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#20 chuck colburn

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 03:54 PM

Originally posted this in the wrong section, my apologizes ... I'm looking to purchase an equivalent Panavision System 65 camera set up for a digital cinema feature. The feature is a 12 week shoot to begin in April. I need mounts, follow focus, remote ... i.e. everything except for the camera. Looking at using either Mimaya or Hasselblad 70mm lenses. etc. I'd appreciate suggestions for sources.



Good afternoon Lance,

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I reread your post and now see that you wish to purchase lenses and related equipment. Since we only made one set of lenses for each of the Showscan cameras I don't think Max at paradisefx would want to sell them off. But who knows I could be mistaken. Anyhow Max might be able to steer you toward some other source. As I said coming from a camera/optical tech. background he knows of which he speaks.
Here's their web link if you haven't already looked it up.

http://www.paradisefx.com/

Good luck on your project, it sounds like the next best thing to film....lol
Seriously I would love to see some footage or at least a frame capture here in this forum. I'm also sure that I'm not alone in that.

Chuck Colburn
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