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KODAK PROFESSIONAL BW400CN


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#1 James Erd

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 05:02 PM

All of the discussion about using color negative for B&W has got me thinking [ that's usually bad :ph34r: ] about trying a little experiment...

Putting KODAK PROFESSIONAL BW400CN in a motion picture camera. This is a B&W negative for processing in C-41 chemistry.

[ http://www.kodak.com...BW400CN4036.pdf ]

1 ) Would cause damage to the camera to shoot still film in it? I seem to recall that there is a difference in the perfs between still and cine film but not whether they are completely incompatible.

2 ) There is no Rem-Jet coating on this film. This might actually be inerestings. In any case it does make home processing a more viable option.
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#2 Dominic Case

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 11:50 PM

It's a chromogenic b/w filmstock. That means it goes through a conventional colour process (C41 as it;s a still film product) but you end up with a grey dye image instead of either a silver image (for traditional b/w) or a ymc colour dye image. This type of emulsion was introduced to make it easy to get b/w images in a commercial market that is increasingly focussed on the colour process.

If you are considering home processing (as you mention there is no remjet), I can't see why you wouldn't go with a conventional b/w emulsion and b/w chemistry. It's much simpler, and also much easier to control.
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#3 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 02:01 AM

I am interested in opinions regarding:

1 ) What issues may arise from shooting KS perffed film in a camera designed for BH perffed film?

2 ) Will the lack of Rem-Jet cause halation? ( could be interesting... or it could stink )

3 ) Will BW400CN a "chromgenic" stock have a significantly different look than that of traditional B&W stock with its Silver gelatin emulsion? If so, how do you feel it will differ? Perhaps there may be less of a tendency for highlights to block out, or maybe the image won't be as crisp.
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#4 Richardson Leao

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 02:30 AM

I am interested in opinions regarding:

1 ) What issues may arise from shooting KS perffed film in a camera designed for BH perffed film?

I learned this one here, as long as your camera does not have a registration pin (or it's an old soviet one) that's OK.

2 ) Will the lack of Rem-Jet cause halation? ( could be interesting... or it could stink )

Depends on the pressure plate, if you have black ones - no, also, silver ones (i doubt) , bw film does not have anti halation and it's fine.

3 ) Will BW400CN a "chromgenic" stock have a significantly different look than that of traditional B&W stock with its Silver gelatin emulsion? If so, how do you feel it will differ? Perhaps there may be less of a tendency for highlights to block out, or maybe the image won't be as crisp.


this one i dunno.
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#5 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 03:19 AM

this one i dunno.



Thank you.

If I ever try this I'll know what to look for in a camera.

I have been wondering about anti halation backings some time now and was curious if the type of pressure plate had a signifigant affect. In my my 1947 lab index it says that coloidial silver was once used for anti halation. The coloidial silver clears in the Hypo along with the undeveloped silver. Sounds like Rem-Jet is a real money saver as far as antihalation backings go :D

About the look of the film, i.e.. Chromgenic Vs Silver Gelatin, I have read on this forum that, The Good German, Goodnight & Good Luck, and The Man Who Wasn't There, were all filmed on color stock. From what I've read this has to do with the grain of traditional B&W film being unacceptable. So I am wondering if there isn't a similar advantage to be gained from BW400CN.

According to Kodak "BW400CN Film features the finest grain available today in a professional chromogenic film. The result is a smooth, neutral tone image with outstanding highlight and shadow detail."

By the way how far are you from Rockhampton? I bought a very nice old Bolex when I was there a few years ago. The previous owner used to freelance for ABC ( would that be Australia Broadcasting Channel? )
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#6 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 05:02 AM

3 ) Will BW400CN a "chromgenic" stock have a significantly different look than that of traditional B&W stock with its Silver gelatin emulsion? If so, how do you feel it will differ? Perhaps there may be less of a tendency for highlights to block out, or maybe the image won't be as crisp.


It will be quite different. I've used the CN a lot, but I still prefer TriX and TMax (although I do use PlusX and Ilford films from time to time) for B/W work, mostly because (1) I can develop and print them myself more easily and (2) the CN is not "real" black and white.

It's a good stock, the grain is very fine, but you can't push it as much as you would with a real B/W film, because, from my experience, the highlights would "suffer" more.
Hope it helps

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#7 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 09:34 AM

It will be quite different. I've used the CN a lot, but I still prefer TriX and TMax (although I do use PlusX and Ilford films from time to time) for B/W work, mostly because (1) I can develop and print them myself more easily and (2) the CN is not "real" black and white.

It's a good stock, the grain is very fine, but you can't push it as much as you would with a real B/W film, because, from my experience, the highlights would "suffer" more.
Hope it helps


Thank you,

I like traditional B&W stock for the same reasons, ease of use and I like the look of it as well, but it nice to be able to exploit a different film to get a different effect. So your information is very helpful. I take it your shooting the CN in a still camera, rite?

By the way have you ever considered doing a bleach bypass on the CN? Then it would be real B&W :D

Thank you again,

James
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#8 Sam Wells

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 09:58 AM

By the way have you ever considered doing a bleach bypass on the CN? Then it would be real B&W :D
James


I thought of that a few years ago, but never got around to asking the local stills lab if they'd try it for me.
(I suspect they'd say "why ???" !)

I nominate you to try it and report back :)

-Sam Wells
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#9 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 10:14 AM

I thought of that a few years ago, but never got around to asking the local stills lab if they'd try it for me.
(I suspect they'd say "why ???" !)

I nominate you to try it and report back :)

-Sam Wells


Hmmm.... I do have a dated roll of CN in my desk... though it would make a better comparison if I had two dated rolls :D
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#10 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 10:38 AM

I thought of that a few years ago, but never got around to asking the local stills lab if they'd try it for me.
(I suspect they'd say "why ???" !)

I nominate you to try it and report back :)

-Sam Wells


I would answer their question thus "Why does an artist need more than one brush?" and then laugh wildly.

I try to avoid labs that ask such questions. When I ask if they do bleach bypass, all I want to hear is the price or even "No, we don't offer that service"

Any way a lot of places don't. I worked at two different pro labs and they just were not set up for it. They were also very much against cross-processing, though I did it accidentally one one or two occasions when the unbound formaldehyde got the better of me.
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 11:06 AM

Try to get someone at a one hour photo to even understand what a bleach bypass is, not chemically, ,just physically, and you will see what you are up against.. . B)

That chromogenic stuff is basically for amateurs, or, before digital, for PJs shooting a B&W page that had C-41 chemistry or a conveniently located photo lab on hand. When scanners replaced darkrooms in the 1990s, you couldn't scan real B&W with digital ice on. I think they usually just used color for this purpose anyway, as they were scanning it all in the end. 400CN doesn't look as good as the "-Xs" or the T-Maxs, and Kodak will most certainly laugh at you if you try to order this product for MP.

Just to confuse the matter more, I once processed a roll of its predecessor in real B&W chemicals, as I was taking a B&W class and figured it'd be silly shelling out dough for C-41 processing with the free access to the college darkroom's D-76. Well, anyway, the thing's bulit-in orangish mask still showed up, and this gave me great problems in printing because it acted as a contrast filter which made the prints overly high in contrast.

You don't have variable contrast print stocks for B&W with movie film (I think?), but you do have that mask to deal with which might give print stock a hard time, or will at least call for wacky printer lights and lamphouse intensities.

Do yourself a favor and don't use the stuff. What Dominic Case said, its only purpose was/is for the convenience of the C-41 workflow.

Regards,

~Karl Borowski
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 11:06 AM

Try to get someone at a one hour photo to even understand what a bleach bypass is, not chemically, ,just physically, and you will see what you are up against.. . B)

That chromogenic stuff is basically for amateurs, or, before digital, for PJs shooting a B&W page that had C-41 chemistry or a conveniently located photo lab on hand. When scanners replaced darkrooms in the 1990s, you couldn't scan real B&W with digital ice on. I think they usually just used color for this purpose anyway, as they were scanning it all in the end. 400CN doesn't look as good as the "-Xs" or the T-Maxs, and Kodak will most certainly laugh at you if you try to order this product for MP.

Just to confuse the matter more, I once processed a roll of its predecessor in real B&W chemicals, as I was taking a B&W class and figured it'd be silly shelling out dough for C-41 processing with the free access to the college darkroom's D-76. Well, anyway, the thing's bulit-in orangish mask still showed up, and this gave me great problems in printing because it acted as a contrast filter which made the prints overly high in contrast.

You don't have variable contrast print stocks for B&W with movie film (I think?), but you do have that mask to deal with which might give print stock a hard time, or will at least call for wacky printer lights and lamphouse intensities.

Do yourself a favor and don't use the stuff. What Dominic Case said, its only purpose was/is for the convenience of the C-41 workflow.

Regards,

~Karl Borowski
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#13 James Erd

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 12:11 PM

"Try to get someone at a one hour photo to even understand what a bleach bypass is, not chemically, ,just physically, and you will see what you are up against.. . B) "

That's just a waste of time. They won't even push or pull development times, but that's what you should expect from labs geared toward consumers and hobbyist run by employees earning the minimum wage.

What is surprising, to me at least, is the number of "Professional" labs that have fits when you ask them to do something like bleach bypass. I'm OK with it if they simply say they don't offer it, but I get a little irritated when they try to convince me I should just stick to the beaten path.

That just isn't good customer service, and that combined with stubborn inflexibility it a recipe for a failed business. Basically that is what happened to the lab I worked at.

"That chromogenic stuff is basically for amateurs"

Not if I'm using it B)

"I once processed a roll of its predecessor in real B&W chemicals, as I was taking a B&W class and figured it'd be silly shelling out dough for C-41 processing with the free access to the college darkroom's D-76. Well, anyway, the thing's bulit-in orangish mask still showed up, and this gave me great problems in printing because it acted as a contrast filter which made the prints overly high in contrast."

You would have gotten a better result with graded paper in spite of using D76 to develop your film though the orange base might have still required an increase in your exposure time.

"Do yourself a favor and don't use the stuff. What Dominic Case said, its only purpose was/is for the convenience of the C-41 workflow."

Thanks, but I like to experiment quite a bit. While not every experiment yields an esthetically pleasing result, it always yields usable information.
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#14 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 09:38 PM

That's just a waste of time. They won't even push or pull development times, but that's what you should expect from labs geared toward consumers and hobbyist run by employees earning the minimum wage.


To be fair, the one hour folks are using a processor that is not deisgned to be very flexible, because flexibility also means "you can set it wrong". I would guess that the only way that someoen could bypass the beeach on some of them whould be to drain the tank into some specialy purchased container.

The reason for these was to allow the creation of B&w Prints using a mini-lab. You are looking at a sytem made for that one use. Slip a roll in with the Kodacolor and black and white prints come out with no opperator effort.

Anti-halation. Uderlayers are usine din many films, Dyes, silver, tinted base are all used. The rem jet works well for motion picture use as it also is conductive and so cuts staic, and it does not leave residue A silver undercoat is common on still films where the rem-jet is not an option. You can see it as a dark layer. Use your thumb and a bit oid spit to rub the remjet off a scrap of motion film to see the colour of the bottom layer and compare with a roll of the same brand still film. The silver layer, which comes out it the bleach will often be clearly visible.
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#15 K Borowski

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 10:40 PM

"Try to get someone at a one hour photo to even understand what a bleach bypass is, not chemically, ,just physically, and you will see what you are up against.. . B) "

That's just a waste of time. They won't even push or pull development times, but that's what you should expect from labs geared toward consumers and hobbyist run by employees earning the minimum wage.


James: I'm not sure why you're critically analyzing a statement I made in jest; you must have seen the smirk with shades, having even quoted it.

As for using graded paper, yes that'd have been better, had I owned some or had the pictures been important enough; they were usable for their intended purpose with the added bonus of being free.

You DO NOT have any contrast grading control with MP print film. You DO NOT have access to MP perfed CN, unless you've purchased 100000 feet of it or are shooting 1 1/2 feet at a timel, and IIRC the CN is the amateur, not the professional version, so my statement to that regard is still valid. If you're shooting the amateur version, stored on store shelves for unGodly amounts of time or in a bright display window, I don't consider that very professional. Let me repeat that the chromogenic B&W's only possible advantages are compatibility with commercial C-41 for those who can't be bothered with developing their own film (I should clarify that to "developing B&W" as I have my own C-41 lab as well as doing B&W), and compatibility with digital ice for those not compotent enough to clean off dust and take care not to cause scratches on their B&W.

And just an FYI, when you disseminate individual sentences of someone's post like that, I consider that to be a hostile gesture. One other thing why ask a "question" when you've already made up your mind?

Edited by Karl Borowski, 20 December 2006 - 10:42 PM.

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#16 Richardson Leao

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 12:43 AM

James: I'm not sure why you're critically analyzing a statement I made in jest; you must have seen the smirk with shades, having even quoted it.

As for using graded paper, yes that'd have been better, had I owned some or had the pictures been important enough; they were usable for their intended purpose with the added bonus of being free.

You DO NOT have any contrast grading control with MP print film. You DO NOT have access to MP perfed CN, unless you've purchased 100000 feet of it or are shooting 1 1/2 feet at a timel, and IIRC the CN is the amateur, not the professional version, so my statement to that regard is still valid. If you're shooting the amateur version, stored on store shelves for unGodly amounts of time or in a bright display window, I don't consider that very professional. Let me repeat that the chromogenic B&W's only possible advantages are compatibility with commercial C-41 for those who can't be bothered with developing their own film (I should clarify that to "developing B&W" as I have my own C-41 lab as well as doing B&W), and compatibility with digital ice for those not compotent enough to clean off dust and take care not to cause scratches on their B&W.

And just an FYI, when you disseminate individual sentences of someone's post like that, I consider that to be a hostile gesture. One other thing why ask a "question" when you've already made up your mind?


Off topic from the chromogenic, but i just found out that ilford 50 pan f can be purchased in bulk rolls too:

http://www.adorama.com/ILPFP100.html

That means that you can have ultrafine grain in a BW film (off course 30m of 35mm will give you only a bit more than a minute) and you have all the range of ilford films for MP. Ilsford also has chromogenic stuff.


Another thing about trying with the lab, c41 developing is extremely easy and very flexible to mistakes, so maybe getting a tank is not a bad idea...
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#17 Dominic Case

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 02:34 AM

2 ) Will the lack of Rem-Jet cause halation? ( could be interesting... or it could stink )

it could stink . . ?? That would be halitosis, not halation :lol:
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#18 James Erd

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 02:51 AM

James: I'm not sure why you're critically analyzing a statement I made in jest; you must have seen the smirk with shades, having even quoted it.

As for using graded paper, yes that'd have been better, had I owned some or had the pictures been important enough; they were usable for their intended purpose with the added bonus of being free.

You DO NOT have any contrast grading control with MP print film. You DO NOT have access to MP perfed CN, unless you've purchased 100000 feet of it or are shooting 1 1/2 feet at a timel, and IIRC the CN is the amateur, not the professional version, so my statement to that regard is still valid. If you're shooting the amateur version, stored on store shelves for unGodly amounts of time or in a bright display window, I don't consider that very professional. Let me repeat that the chromogenic B&W's only possible advantages are compatibility with commercial C-41 for those who can't be bothered with developing their own film (I should clarify that to "developing B&W" as I have my own C-41 lab as well as doing B&W), and compatibility with digital ice for those not compotent enough to clean off dust and take care not to cause scratches on their B&W.

And just an FYI, when you disseminate individual sentences of someone's post like that, I consider that to be a hostile gesture. One other thing why ask a "question" when you've already made up your mind?


I'm sorry Karl, I didn't mean any offense. I some times forget how my post will be read. Please accept my apology. I did appreciate your response and I respect you opinion.

Regarding the questions I was asking about the film, I wanted to know about the issue of KS Vs. BH perforations, and what pictorial effect using a non Rem-Jet stock would have in the camera. Your opinion on this film is that it's not worth while. That's cool, I have no issue there either. I think the difference in our approach to filmmaking has a lot to do with my artistic curiosity.

I always want to see what effect can be achieved by using not traditional methods. To that end I do a lot of crazy stuff like compounding my own chemistry from scratch, or taking old lenses apart and flipping the elements around backwards [ I have created some very unusual effects this way ]. Most of my experiments are nothing more than an attempt understand the process more deeply.
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#19 James Erd

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:37 AM

Off topic from the chromogenic, but i just found out that ilford 50 pan f can be purchased in bulk rolls too:

http://www.adorama.com/ILPFP100.html

That means that you can have ultrafine grain in a BW film (off course 30m of 35mm will give you only a bit more than a minute) and you have all the range of ilford films for MP. Ilsford also has chromogenic stuff.
Another thing about trying with the lab, c41 developing is extremely easy and very flexible to mistakes, so maybe getting a tank is not a bad idea...


I think it might be a very nice choice for doing time lapse especialy with it slow ISO. I live near San Francisco and there are a lot of interesting views on the bay. I had a chance to by an old bank security camera [ 35mm half frame ] which would have been perfect for this. It could be set to take a picture at any interval. I remember passing it up because the lens was too far gone and at the time I wasn't interested in shooting half frame, and I thought $75 was too much for the camera. The registration wasn't that great either but I can get around that. It's best feature though was that it was intended to take a 30m load.


it could stink . . ?? That would be halitosis, not halation :lol:


Some times coffee gives me halitosis, and coffee can be used to develop film. I wonder then can my breath develop film or will it just fog it? :D
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#20 Mark Dunn

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 04:29 AM

The b/w C-41 process films don't have the orange mask.
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