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Kinor and K 3 - massive informations !


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#1 Walintino Nording

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 11:12 AM

Hi .

i ve just "copy-paste " some questions / answers from the forum about the K3 and Kinor 16 ...maybe that could help
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Congratulations on purchacing the camera. Hope you have a lot of fun with it. I've never heard of a K3 completely modified for super16. Who did the modification, which mount does it have, and which lens comes with it. Which lens(es) are you planning on using?

I would do the following tests:

1. After a thourough visual inspection, wind the camera completely and run it at no more than 24fps for the full wind. Do this several times, timing the running time, to see if it's consistent. Listen to it's sound and see if it slows down towards the end of the wind. If the camera has a frame counter, set the speed at 24 or 25fps and run the camera for 10 seconds and see if you got the correct # of frames. Adjust the speed and repeat. Note the position of the speed dial where it's most accurate.

2. Practice loading the camera with some old film.

3. With never before used film do a scratch test. Run a few feet into the take up spool, and examine at least a foot of it with a magnified glass on both sides. Here's a thread on scatch testing.

http://www.cinematog...hl=scratch test

4. Perform a visual registration test. Run the camera with double perf film, and observe the perforation through the mount with the lens removed. There should be no weaving or jerkiness.

5. You can also do a rough framing test at this point. The mirror brings the ground glass into view for half the time when the camera is running. The other half you see the gate. By looking directly at the gate when the camera is running, you'll see the lines of the groung glass superimosed on the gate when the mirror passes. A big misalignment will be apparent, but it takes a little practice to do this.

6. If you supect framing innacuracy, or you plan on shooting something important, you should do proper framing and registration tests:

http://www.cinematog...gistration test

7. Shoot some film, before imbarking on something important. Always check the gate for dirt, at every roll change. Also do a scratch test at every roll change. Load film in the shade. Shoot at all focal lengths, and apertures as much as possible. If you have the stock lens it won't cover super16 fully. Determine at what focal length it does cover.









While your viewfinder may have been widened to view the Super 16 area, its probably not "re-centered." Not that big of a deal on a K-3, just that the brightness falls off quite a bit on the right side of the viewfinder but the film should be fully covered.

Shoot some film and check it out, you may be just fine. I ran into a problem with my lens where the first frame of a take would be perfectly in focus and then go slightly blurry. It was a collimation problem with the Meteor zoom lens... other M42 still camera lenses didn't show that problem.

I'd suggest picking up a 28mm, 35mm or even 50mm M42 Pentax Super Takumar lens so you can have another lens option and see if you notice a difference in quality or focus. They're pretty cheap on eBay and plenty of small camera stores have them laying around.
A some strange situation.
The serviced K-3 must have less noise.
If the serviced Super 16 camera at 24 fps have similar noise like other K-3 at 48 fps, can show like Super 16 camera have problem with mechanism or bad condition of mechanism, or had bad adjust of mechanism or any other
Super 16 have speed 24 fps or to have speed 48 fps with position of speed switch 24 fps ( not work mechanical speed control module ).
You can measuring of speed of camera. How long film can run camera for fixed time.

Other, the camera with film have a some more noise from camera without film.





it's motor is fixed at 25fps, will that affect the sound synch.


Well if you're in Europe of the UK that's no problem
They're standard synch rate is 25fps
If you're in the US then there might be problem since it's 24fps here
If the camera has a Xtal speed (meaning rock-steady constant speed) motor
Then you won't have any problems if you're not screening from a projector.
The problems come when you screen footage shot on 25fps on a 24fps projector.
If you finish on video just get a telecine at 25fps not 24fps and you'll be okay.
sound is recorded in real time so if you're visuals play in real time it'll be okay...
You could shoot at 8fps or 64fps and still have it look and sound okay
If you project it at 8fps or 64fps or whatever the frame rate you shot on.

























its of dust on the ground glass and specks in the optical path of the viewfinder should not have any effect on the image recorded on the film; however, if your viewfinder is very dirty there could be other bits of stuff floating around in your camera that may have an effect on its operation, so your camera could probably use a good cleaning. Of course you want to make sure that there there are no hairs or film scraps in the gate, where they will be recorded on the film (or scratch it).

I once corresponded with someone who had the 10-100 Kinor zoom adapted for his Eclair, and he said it was optically excellent, comparable to the Zeiss on which it is based. Hope this helps.




I´m using the Kinor with the 10-100mm zoom -it´s just great. Someone told me, that it offers at least the same quality as the zeiss original. The 12-120mm Zoom is a copy of the Angénieux 12-120mm. Like the original, it is said to be too soft and the quality is lower than the 10-100. I´m not using the 12-120mm Zoom, but I have been told by an expert, that I should always prefer the 10-100mm Zoom. By the way: it should be delivered with a wide angle adapter. It turns the 10-100mm Zoom in a 6mm wide angle -lens. The optical qualitiy is great.












Hello
I need a single frame motor on my kinor sx 2m 16mm camera. Does anybody know where to get one?
I want to do timelapses with my camera, so it woud be good it the motor could be adjust to take longer shutter times.



Someone did adapt a Tobin time lapse motor to a Konvas so you might want to look at the article to how they did it. You'll find it on this site:

http://www.commiecam.com/

Look under camera modifications.



, if one shoots 25fps (in the US) using a russian Kinor 16mm camera how easy would it be to convert the frame rate to 24fps? What does it produce visually?
Also, what about sync sound... in this case?


Hi
The electrical motor 29EPSS of Kinor 16 camera can be adjust for sped 24 fps very easy.
Will need adjust of variable resistor on seed control.
This is resistor can control from outside.

The motor can be modifed on multi speed vetsion with speed from 12 fps up to 50 fps.
The hand control of speed possible too.

The recording of sync sound possible with Kinor camera too.
Kinor camera have low volume of noise.
The electrical motor have Pilot signal generator 25 fps speed = 50 Hz 10 v.

Other technical questions, you can send to me olex@a-teleport.com






Kinor-16 SX-2M with electrical motor ( multi speed version ), 100 ft and 400 ft film magazines,
prime lenses from 6 mm, zoom lenses 7.5-75mm, 10-100 mm, 12-120 mm.
Low price, high precision, high reliability














=I've just resently got a Kinor 16 24p crystal synch package.

Kinor-16 SX-2M camera can have a few electrical motors, This can be 29EPSS motor with analog system of speed control and one speed 25 fps, 10EP-16 APK motor with crystal sync speed control and one speed 25 fps or 24 fps or AC motor 10EPS.
29EPSS motor can be modify on multispeed or crystal sync multispeed versions.

= I'm wondering if it is easy to modify to super16
The modification on professional Super 16 film format cannot be easy.
But, you need think, what lenses you will use. The zoom lens of Kinor-16 camera not cover Super 16 size on all range of zoom.

= Is it too noisy to shoot synch sound without a blimp?
Kinor-16 SX-2M camera, serviced, with good condition have noisy near 42 Db.
Kinor-16 camera design for shooting of footages with sinch sound recoding and have Pilot-Signal system.
But, to use of additional sound blimp will not bad idea.

=I was a bit disapointed with my Konvas 1m lens,
I think, the your problem not on quality of Konvas lenses, your camera and lenses can have bad service, or bad adjust, or position of ground glass adjust not correct.
The many famous Russian films made with Konvas cameras and you can see quality of image.


--------------------
Best regards
Olexandr






















Meter: I've never heard of anyone actually using the K-3 internal meter. Make sure you invest in a good modern light meter made for Cine cameras. You'll be spending alot of money on film, processing and transfer so do your best to expose it correctly. This could cost you as much as $200 or more, but will save you heartache. Modern negative stocks are very forgiving (especially with a good transfer colorist) but nothing helps as much as proper exposure.

Lenses: You're camera should have an M42 mount, sometimes called a Pentax Screw mount. This mount was more popular in Europe than the U.S. so much of what you'll find could come from there. There are many great lenses available, mostly lenses from 35mm still cameras. Search eBay for Pentax Super-Takumar lenses. Its very important that any lens you buy has a FULLY MANUAL APERATURE. The Pentax M42 lenses have switches to make it auto or manual.

Check with local mom & pop camera shops (not a chain store) and you might find some used lenses there too. If you go the Pentax route, a 24mm lens might be a good choice although the 28mm lens is probably easier to find. Also, there are some Russian lenses that are good too like the MC Zenitar 16mm lens or the Peleng 8mm. The 16mm lens is slightly wider than your current lens and would cover the full Super 16 area if you ever make that upgrade. The lens you have is probably pretty good, so try it out in several situations first.

Film: If you are shooting for transfer to video, any of the Vision2 negative stocks are great. 50D if you are outside on a bright day, 250D if its in the shade or not as bright. 100T or 200T would be fine in well-lit interiors. Try some negative B&W stocks. They have more latitude then their reversal film cousins and look great on video transfer... plus the cost less money. Basically you'll be amazed at any film you try; each type has its own unique look.

Super 16: The modification involves making the film gate larger. If you're not a skilled machinist, I suggest having a camera tech like Du-All camera in NYC do it for you. They can remove the loops at the same time; something that reduces the changes of your film being scratched. As far as projecting Super 16, I think you need a projector lens that will handle it.

Transfer: 16mm is not Super 8. While you can project and shoot it off a wall (if you do this shoot reversal stock like Ektachrome), the best methods are to have it transfered by pros like at Bonolabs in MD, Flying Spot Film Transfer in Seattle or CinePost in Atlanta. They aren't the only ones by far, but they are reasonable and do a good job.




MTO-500 500mm/F8.0
Carl Zeiss Flectogon 40mm/F3.5
Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm/F2.8



Jupiter-36 250mm/F3.5




K3
Concerning the lens question: The M42 system allows to use many diferent lenses -most of them very cheap. There are also a lot of adapters, that help you to use any SLR-lens. I got an adapter Canon FD - M42 . I´m able to use my SLR-Canon-Lenses on the K 3 now.
One of the best SLR-lenses I know was designed for M42. Try to get it! It is availible very cheap. It´s the Pentacon 1:1,8 50mm. It was produced during the eighties in Dresden, East Germany, for the SLR-Camera Practica (MTL 3, MTL 5 etc). Try to get one of these SLR-Cameras (on Ebay for example -supposed to be very cheap), take off the Pentacon 1:1,8 50mm lens and put it on your K3. I never had a lens with this sharpness and contrast. And I´ve ben using lots of lenses from Canon -also different 50mm lenses (like the FD 1.1,8 and 1:1,2) -none of the Canon lenses was like the Pentacon lens.
Best regards,
Ole







Concerning the lens question: The M42 system allows to use many diferent lenses -most of them very cheap. There are also a lot of adapters, that help you to use any SLR-lens. I got an adapter Canon FD - M42 . I´m able to use my SLR-Canon-Lenses on the K 3 now.


---Have you actually used that adaptor yet?

The FD mount is considerably wider than the M-42 and has a shorter flange depth.
If it's really for using Canons on an M-42, it would be for macro work.
Whereas Canon did make an adaptor for using m-42 lenses on an FD.
Many other cameras have adaptors for using M-42s on them. Nikon and Contax/Yashica are examples.
But as for using other mounts on an M-42...
















have not english version of user manual of Kinor-16 camera, but, if you will have questions, you can ask me.
If you need russian user manual, i can give copy.
The many information about use of Kinor-16 camera you can see on my pages :
- technical information http://www.geocities...nor-16sx-2m.htm

pages about prime lenses, zoom lenses, film magazines, procedure of loading film into 30 m, 120 m film magazines.
The information about repair of Kinor cameras :
http://www.geocities...ep-kinor-16.htm
The information about modification of Kinor cameras :
http://www.geocities...kinor-motor.htm


2. Kinor-16-SX-2M have one blade shutter disk ( mirror disk ) with 170 degree of angle ( shutter open ).
The time of frame exposing with speed 25 fps 1/53 sec, 24 fps 1/51 sec.

3.16 mm film can be on 100 ft daylight spools and on plastic core.
The 30 m film magazine of Kinor-16 camera compatible with film on 100 ft daylight spools and on core.
The 120 m film magazine can use with 120 m roll of film on core only.

The 30 m film magazine of Kinor-16 camera have removable part on takeup and feed axis.
If you take away removable part, you can set film on 100 ft daylight spool.
This is removable parts use for load film on core.

From my personal experience, i recommend use core on takeup axis only.
The 100 ft daylight spools on takeup axis work with not confidence too much and film can have jam.
The Kodak metal 100 ft daylight spools can work good, but, the problem with jam of film can be too. need test of every magazine with daylight spools.

If you wish use of 16 mm film on daylight spools, you can load film on spool into film magazine on feed axis and set core on takeup axis. The film on core take any processing lab for processing.

Yes, of course, You can loading of film into film magazine with daylight, but, unload of film magazine, you need do on darkness or inside charging bag only.

Edited by Walintino Nording, 07 January 2007 - 11:14 AM.

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#2 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 02:15 PM

The additinal information.

1. After a thourough visual inspection, wind the camera completely and run it at no more than 24fps for the full wind. Do this several times, timing the running time, to see if it's consistent. Listen to it's sound and see if it slows down towards the end of the wind. If the camera has a frame counter, set the speed at 24 or 25fps and run the camera for 10 seconds and see if you got the correct # of frames. Adjust the speed and repeat. Note the position of the speed dial where it's most accurate.
be amazed at any film you try; each type has its own unique look.


The easy procedure of measuring and adjust of speed of K-3 camera.
The film counter of K-3 have low precision, that's why, need counting of quantity of perforation of film, moved for 10 ( 20 ) sec of camera at speed 24 fps.

once corresponded with someone who had the 10-100 Kinor zoom adapted for his Eclair, and he said it was optically excellent, comparable to the Zeiss on which it is based. Hope this helps.

The many Eclair ACL cameras from special USSR delivery had lens mount adapter for use of Kinor-16 lenses with Eclair ACl cameras.
I have Elciar with adapter and use withmy 16 OPF-12-1 10-100 mm and 16 OPF-1-2M 12-120 mm lenses.
The original set of Eclair had 10-150 mm Angénieux zoom lens. I prefer of use a russian OPF and OKS
lenses.
I don't can comfirm of information, what russian 12-120 mm lens - copy of Angénieux and 10-100 mm copy of Carl Zeiss. If you compare optical schemes, you can see difference.

I need a single frame motor on my kinor sx 2m 16mm camera. Does anybody know where to get one?
I want to do timelapses with my camera, so it woud be good it the motor could be adjust to take longer shutter times.


The real time lapse motor possible for Kinor camera, i have initial design, but, i don't have any real order of time lapse motor, thats' why, this design not finished.
If the anybody need a time lapse motor for Kinor, inform me.
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#3 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 12:57 PM

Meter: I've never heard of anyone actually using the K-3 internal meter. Make sure you invest in a good modern light meter made for Cine cameras.


the light meter of the k3 was made for cine cameras, i always use the internal light meter of my k3 and work really good, never have problems with exposure.

it depends on the state of the camera, i buy my own from olex and works great.
bye!

Treegan

Edited by General Treegan, 12 January 2007 - 12:58 PM.

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#4 Will Montgomery

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 03:22 PM

the light meter of the k3 was made for cine cameras, i always use the internal light meter of my k3 and work really good, never have problems with exposure.
Treegan


I've never even tried the internal meter... what kind of batteries does it take? I've had great success with my Scoopic MS's internal meter so I'd like to try the K3's. Of course, I use these cameras for fun/hobby work so an internal meter might be just fine.
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#5 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 03:30 PM

I've never even tried the internal meter... what kind of batteries does it take? I've had great success with my Scoopic MS's internal meter so I'd like to try the K3's. Of course, I use these cameras for fun/hobby work so an internal meter might be just fine.


Kransogrosk have silmply circuit of light meter.
This is photoresistor, on-off switch, resistor, battery.
You can use 1.5 v battery similar type of "625", but, you will need set adapter, because, the size of 625 battery and size of original battery differ.
The photoresistor can lost sensitivity and you will need adjust of resistor.
But, TTL meter of light meter have low precision and big inertia and have effect " blindness ".
That's why, the aperture need adjust from maximum aperture ( F16 ).

That's why, if you wish have good quality of footages, i recommend use of exernal modern light meter.
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