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questiona bout cp-16r


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#1 Jeffery Pool

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 06:31 PM

Heya

a quick beginner question about this camera: Do you have the option to shoot in any other frame rate other than 24fps? I haven't found any documentation about it on the web anywhere.
thanks!

Ok i found the answer on this forum - it can run up to 48fps.
does anyone have any slow motion 48fps footage? thanks!
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#2 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 08:13 PM

does anyone have any slow motion 48fps footage? thanks!



you mean you wanna see some footage shooted at 48fps?

bye!
Treegan
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#3 Michael Collier

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 03:35 PM

It can shoot at a bunch of frame rates (I think 4, 8, 12, 24, 36, and 48, but I forget) last time I used that camera, during prep we found the batteries were not powerful enough to drive it at full frame rate for long, so we avoided it during the shoot, opting to slow things down in post if need be. the back has a little rotary knob that must be depressed to turn and select frame rate. Keep in mind that the pulley inside the body tells you the base speed. there are two different pullys, 24fps and a 25fps one. If you change the 24 to a 25, then the other speeds on the knob are affected as well. Hope this helps
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#4 Mike Rizos

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 08:28 PM

Hi,
The camera can't shoot 48fps. With the 24 fps pulley the available speeds are: 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36. With the 25 fps pulley, 12.5, 16.5, 21, 25, 33.5, 37.5.
The camera must be smooth running (i.e. serviced) to run at 36fps, otherwise it wont hold speed.
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#5 steve hyde

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 01:31 PM

I know the CP16 system takes 400ft mags and even the larger Mitchell mags (in some cases), but can this camera take 100ft daylight loads?

Steve
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#6 chuck colburn

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 02:09 PM

I know the CP16 system takes 400ft mags and even the larger Mitchell mags (in some cases), but can this camera take 100ft daylight loads?

Steve


Not in the camera body.
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#7 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 09:00 PM

I know the CP16 system takes 400ft mags and even the larger Mitchell mags (in some cases), but can this camera take 100ft daylight loads?

Steve

If you load it in a mag, theres no place for a roll of any kind within the body. What is it exactly you want to do with a CP-16? Because high frame rate, with 100' spools sounds like a Bolex or a K3.
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#8 steve hyde

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 11:25 PM

If you load it in a mag, theres no place for a roll of any kind within the body. What is it exactly you want to do with a CP-16? Because high frame rate, with 100' spools sounds like a Bolex or a K3.



Thanks for the replies. I might have confused matters by changing the subject of this thread slightly. I am considering buying a CP16 and want to learn as much about the camera system as possible. I would use it primarily for sound-sync shooting (not high speed) I was wondering if the camera accepted internal daylight spools.

Visual Products in Ohio has an attractive offer for a PL mount conversion, S16 modified gate and full overhaul for $2500. I have not heard from anyone who actually has a PL - S16 - CP16 so I have no clear sense of the quality and reliability and stability of this particular modification. If anyone has any experience with one, please chime in.

At the moment I am weighing the options. If I go for the CP16 should I get the modification so that I can shoot on S16 PL mount lenses? (I don't own any and can't afford them) or my other option is to overhaul the CP16 without mods and shoot 4:3 on a Zeiss 10-100, which is a lens that does not cover S16 in the wide focal lengths unless it is modified.

I am looking for a sturdy and reliable package to own since I make documentary films that require extended time in the field away from the rental house. The CP16 package with the Zeiss 10 -100 is a nice 4:3 16mm sound sync option, but given industry standards I'd prefer to shoot S16. At this point I'm leaning towards shooting 4:3 16mm, but not without hesitation. The ideal camera for my work is an A-minima, but that is out of my reach at the moment.

Steve
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#9 Mike Rizos

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:06 AM

Hi
I like my Cp a lot. I think it's a decent and underated camera. I think it would be perfect for your situation, where you need a camera to own, because it's reliable, durable, quiet, relatively inexpensive, and easy to repair.

Buy a camera with the 170 shutter. Just too many problems with the butterfly shutter. This will also insure, the finder is 12x. Earlier ones before serial 2100 had 8x. Forget about modifying the shutter to close down the angle. It's composed of thin metal disk 190 degrees, and mirror 180 degrees. They sit close togethe in a recess, with absolutely no room to spare. If the balance gets upset the disk will rub the sides, making your camera very noisy.

The viewing system is first class, with 1.85, TV, and projector aperture framelines. The camera exposes a slighly larger area on film. There is also extra viewning area past the framelines. The standard viewfinder is not orientable, for that you'll have to get the orientable finder, which is pricey at 1k+. This is also a must for left eye viewning. There is also a viewfinder extension, which brings the eyepiece to the back of the camera for tripod/dolly work.I don't know at what serial #, but I believe late CP's came ready for autoexposure, and video tap prisms in the viewfinder optics.

The magazines are a breeze to load. The camera is not, which is a disadvantage for documentary work.
The film takes a very complicated path around 13 rollers(yes 13!), plus you have to remove the pressure plate, to make sure the claw engages. In the meantime you can't let the spring loaded plate backer slap the gate, and possibly cause a bur, which means emulsion side scratches. You may also have to lift the spring loaded claw guard, to slide the film up or down for the claw to engage. You also need the correct amount of film slack around the gate, the bottom being particularly crucial. The camera has spring side rails on the claw side.

The CP mount is excellent, plus you can use Arri B, or standard mount lenses with an adapter. There is also a Nikon adapter.

Loaded with zoom the camera weights about 17 lbs, but is well balanced for shoulder work. I found that these heads, rated at 22 lbs, will not support the camera well with long lenses. At the minimum I reccomend a 30 lbs rated head, like an O'Connor 30b, and probably 50 lbs head is better.

If you go for super 16, remember good super 16 zooms aren't cheap. A converted Cooke is around 4k, a converted Zeiss 5k +. The Angenieux 15-150 is not highly regarded. You may wish to go with primes, but that will be a disadvantage in a documentary situation. There is the ULTRA T's, 9,12,16,25mm. The 9 won't cover but the rest will. They are about $500-600 each.
I spend a lot of time examining lenses for super16, so I went for the Cooke 9-50 which will cost $2500 to convert. It seems to cover from about 20mm wide open.
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#10 Robert Skates

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 06:44 AM

When it come to lens choice and super 16 consider the aspect ratio you plan to compose for. If you are planning to compose for 1.85:1 most standard 16mm lenses will cover. In 1.85 my Cooke 9-50mm covers from around 12mm All things being equal it really is all about the glass.

I recently sold my CP16 R/A. I had a small set of Zeiss primes with Arri to CP adapters. The images produced by that CP with Zeiss glass was nothing short of amazing. If I had a choice between an Arri SR with an old angenieux 12-120 or a CP16 with Zeiss primes, I would choose the CP. I would suggest to anyone with a limited budget, build your camera kit around a good set of ARRI mount lenses. Camera bodies turn up all the time on ebay. CP, Eclair, Aaton, and Arri cameras will accept Arri mount lenses, with or without adapters. Get a great set of lenses and upgrade the camera body as you can afford it.

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#11 steve hyde

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:59 PM

Very helpful responses - thank you.

I am only considering the late model half-moon 170 degree mirror shutter with the orientable view finder CP - not the bow tie CP. I did not know that there was a Nikon to CP mount adapter. That has a lot of appeal since I own, and have access to, many Nikon lenses. Is the Nikon to CP mount easy to find? Where might I find one?

I think I will have to go for the 30lbs + fluid head since the camera alone weighs 22lbs.

PL mount S16 lenses are prohibitively expensive to own so that defeats the purpose of having a CP16. If I'm going to rent PL mount glass, I might as well pick up the AatonXTR prod while I'm at it - Perhaps the CP modifications are not worth it unless one has a treasure chest of PL mount glass sitting around. (not me)

The loading problems sound a bit intimidating. 13 rollers?!?!. I sometimes process my own super 8 films so I am no stranger to fumbling around in the dark with a lot of spaghetti on my hands. My question to CP owners is can you tell if you operating with a misloaded mag? If you get the loops wrong, can you hear it? Does it jam? I have blown 100 foot daylight rolls in my FilmoDR from not getting the loops quite right and that costs me dearly, but loosing a 400ft roll... I shutter to think about it..

Steve
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#12 Matt Pacini

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 04:18 PM

I love my Cp16R/A

You can't do internal 100foot loads, but there is a 200ft mag out there, that's smaller & lighter than the 400 footer (obviously) if you're trying to cut down on bulk.
They're pretty rare. (I have one, but I had to keep looking on ebay for about a year to get one).

Why would you actually want the 100 foot loads?

As far as the PL mount, if you're going to rent lenses, then it makes sense.
If you're going to buy lenses, there is some nice glass in CP mount, like the CP Ultra Primes, for instance.
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#13 Mike Rizos

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:37 PM

I did not know that there was a Nikon to CP mount adapter. That has a lot of appeal since I own, and have access to, many Nikon lenses. Is the Nikon to CP mount easy to find? Where might I find one?

The loading problems sound a bit intimidating. 13 rollers?!?!. I sometimes process my own super 8 films so I am no stranger to fumbling around in the dark with a lot of spaghetti on my hands. My question to CP owners is can you tell if you operating with a misloaded mag? If you get the loops wrong, can you hear it? Does it jam? I have blown 100 foot daylight rolls in my FilmoDR from not getting the loops quite right and that costs me dearly, but loosing a 400ft roll... I shutter to think about it..
Steve


Hi
There is actually two Nikon adapters. The CP made one replaces the existing mount. The mount unscrews off if you remove the little stud located between the locking ears. I wonder if the PL mount modification works the same way. This adapter is not difficult to find, but expect to pay around $250 from a dealer.
There is also another aftermarket one that actually mounts on the CP normally. This is much quicker to use, but you have to wonder why CP went with the other type. I don't know how good or rare this one is, but I saw one on ebay go for $70.

I probably overstated the loading problems, it's not difficult after a few practice runs. But it takes a couple of minutes. There is a threading diagram inside the camera body to follow. And you're not doing this in the dark. The only thing you have to do in a changing bag is load the magazine feed side, the rest normally, accept film removal off course.
If you thread it incorrectly, depending on the point of misthead, the camera may jamb, make loud flaping noises, and the same if it loses it's loop. If you misthread the magazine, which is pretty difficult to do because there is only one roller, and go under it, instead of over it, the camera may run normally, but will scratch the film. I suspect the same result if you go over the rollers located closest to the magazine in the camera body, and not under them like the diagram shows.
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#14 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 10:08 PM

The loading problems sound a bit intimidating. 13 rollers?!?!. I sometimes process my own super 8 films so I am no stranger to fumbling around in the dark with a lot of spaghetti on my hands. My question to CP owners is can you tell if you operating with a misloaded mag? If you get the loops wrong, can you hear it? Does it jam? I have blown 100 foot daylight rolls in my FilmoDR from not getting the loops quite right and that costs me dearly, but loosing a 400ft roll... I shutter to think about it..

Steve


All you really need to do in the bag is put the roll in the magazine. The threading process is in light.

As follows:
Posted Image

Posted Image
This is how the mag loads, with the open end.

Posted Image
You want the perfs to catch, so align them so everything is like a locked together puzzle. You can used that geared wheel to phase the movement as well.

Posted Image
That image is what you dont want, that film sticking out? make sure all of the film is completely under the pressure plate and the pull down claw is engaged.

Posted Image
Then pull down the wheel mechanism that pushes the film onto the other side of the perf gear wheel.

Posted Image
then release the wheel mechanism and let it push the film onto the perf gear wheel.



That is basically how you thread a CP-16.
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#15 Mike Rizos

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:16 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image


I'm sorry Kenny, nice illustrations, but you're misthreading the camera. This is exactly what I mentioned on my last post. Look where the film is supposed to run when it meets the first roller as it comes off the magazine feed on the first picture. Now look where you have the film positioned in the same spot on the second picture. You barely see the roller, but the film is obviously on the wrong side of it. Once you clamp the magazine down, the film will miss the first roller completely, the camera may run normally, but will stratch the film.
Also, the inside of your camera seems dirty. There is no excuse for that.
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#16 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:55 PM

I'm sorry Kenny, nice illustrations, but you're misthreading the camera. This is exactly what I mentioned on my last post. Look where the film is supposed to run when it meets the first roller as it comes off the magazine feed on the first picture. Now look where you have the film positioned in the same spot on the second picture. You barely see the roller, but the film is obviously on the wrong side of it. Once you clamp the magazine down, the film will miss the first roller completely, the camera may run normally, but will stratch the film.
Also, the inside of your camera seems dirty. There is no excuse for that.

I realized that as I was threading, I commonly make that mistake and catch myself halfway through.

Most of the camera dirtiness is permanent gunk that just set over the years. Its not like I deliberately put calcium deposits in my camera and say "man I hope that guy Mark notices.", likewise I dont not try to clean it, its jsut I'm not a tech and dont want to take anything apart just to get something that doesnt affect performance at all screwing my camera up while I'm at it.
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#17 steve hyde

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 01:35 AM

..Thanks for the great illustrations! It looks like it just takes a bit of practice. I have worked with industrial stitching equipment for shoe making so this kind of threading looks pretty manageable for me. That combined with simultaneously double stacking 50ft super 8 rolls onto LOMO spirals in the dark has been good training for the rigors of handling vintage 16mm cinemachinery (I'll eat the words - I know) ;)

Hi
There is actually two Nikon adapters. The CP made one replaces the existing mount. The mount unscrews off if you remove the little stud located between the locking ears. I wonder if the PL mount modification works the same way. This adapter is not difficult to find, but expect to pay around $250 from a dealer.
There is also another aftermarket one that actually mounts on the CP normally. This is much quicker to use, but you have to wonder why CP went with the other type. I don't know how good or rare this one is, but I saw one on ebay go for $70.

I probably overstated the loading problems, it's not difficult after a few practice runs. But it takes a couple of minutes. There is a threading diagram inside the camera body to follow. And you're not doing this in the dark. The only thing you have to do in a changing bag is load the magazine feed side, the rest normally, accept film removal off course.
If you thread it incorrectly, depending on the point of misthead, the camera may jamb, make loud flaping noises, and the same if it loses it's loop. If you misthread the magazine, which is pretty difficult to do because there is only one roller, and go under it, instead of over it, the camera may run normally, but will scratch the film. I suspect the same result if you go over the rollers located closest to the magazine in the camera body, and not under them like the diagram shows.


There is not a Nikon to PL adapter to my knowledge, but I have been told it is not hard to switch the CP and PL mounts as needed. (minor bench work)

I would like to see some footage from this camera. Do you have any on view or can you recommend some samples of footage from the CP? One draw back on this camera for me is not having a variable shutter. I like strobing effects and I like to catch water droplets and things like that. Will the CP stop water droplets at 36fps? What is the effective shutter speed at 36?

Again thanks,

Steve

Edited by steve hyde, 23 January 2007 - 01:37 AM.

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#18 Ian Marks

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 12:34 PM

Footage from a CP will tend to look just like footage from any other professional 16mm camera, so there's not much point in seeking out films shot with it. Variable shutters are actually fairly uncommon when you think about it, and would have added complexity to a camera designed and built to be as sturdy and foolproof as possible - it was a news-gathering camera after all. In this price range, only the NPR has a variable shutter. You might want to invest in a Bolex Rex as a "B" camera for slow-mo shots - it will go to 64 fps and does have a variable shutter.

As for the Nikon adapter, the original CP model replaced the CP mount because the flange to focal plane distance was too far for the Nikon lenses (the lenses needed to sit deeper in the camera than the mount would allow). The second version incorporated an optically flat piece of glass which effectively counteracted this shortcoming - a brilliant solution. $70 for one of these would be a fantastic deal - they're usually more like $200 - but like everything else in the 16mm world prices seem to be falling.
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#19 Robert Hughes

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 05:01 PM

Will the CP stop water droplets at 36fps? What is the effective shutter speed at 36?

Again thanks,

Steve


If you want to stop water droplets, use a high-speed strobe synced to the camera. The effective shutter speed of a CP16R at 36fps is about 1/100 sec depending on the shutter and any conversions done to it.

PS - My butterfly shutter CP16R does not smear in the least. It's a design fault, but is camera dependent. I have an Angenieux 10-150 which is annoyingly soft open, but it came from a different source and hasn't been collimated to the camera, either.
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#20 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 09:42 PM

..Thanks for the great illustrations! It looks like it just takes a bit of practice.

half those rollers are there to allow for the magnetic sound head, and the right loop size for it. Too bad that mag stipe film seems to have gone completly away.
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