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Lens resolution on Russian cameras


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#1 Nicholas Kinsey

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 10:09 PM

I am a Canadian Dop with 25 years of experience in 35mm and 16mm feature production. In recent years we have been using lots of old Cooke and Arri primes in standard Arri mounts on an Arriflex 35BLII for low budget feature productions. Lens tests prove their excellent resolution. Most of these lenses give 42 lines per mm wide-open or when you stop down a bit. The only problem with older lenses seems to be reflections since the coating weren't so great in the 1970s and 1980s.

I am a fan of the old technology and still enjoy shooting with the old cameras. Our features look just as good as features shot with Panavision cameras and primes, and a hell of a lot better than HD. With regard to lenses I will always refuse to use any lens that gives me a 29 lines per mm reading because you can see how soft it is on the big screen.

I am thinking of buying a second camera, either a Cameflex or a Konvas 35mm camera, and was wondering what level of resolution you can get with the OCT lens mount and the Russian primes that go with Konvas cameras, etc. Is there anyone out there who has done lens tests with Russians primes using this lens mount?
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#2 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 03:39 AM

I am thinking of buying a second camera, either a Cameflex or a Konvas 35mm camera, and was wondering what level of resolution you can get with the OCT lens mount and the Russian primes that go with Konvas cameras, etc. Is there anyone out there who has done lens tests with Russians primes using this lens mount?


If you will visit of my site
http://www.geocities...lenses/lens.htm
you can see many technical information about russian OKS , OPF lenses and you can see level of resolution.
If you need extension of information, i can tell :
The lenses can have design of optical blocks with " normal " level of resolution 40..50 lines per mm , special series of "soft" optical blocks with resolution 20..30 lines per mm and special high resolution Ekran series with resolution 50..70 lines per mm.
From other side, the lenses can have " normal " speed optical blocks ( F2.0...2.8 ) and fast speed optical blocks ( F1.2-1.8 ).

I recommend draw attention on lenses of Konvas-2M and Kinor-35 H cameras.

About Konvas-2M.
This is very good cine camera with high technical possibloities and high reliability.
The camera can have many modern modifications.
The electrical motor of camera can be modify on multi speed, crystal sync speed version or on version with
speed synthesizer with steps of 0.1, 0.01, 0.002 fps.
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#3 Nicholas Kinsey

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 11:31 AM

Thanks Oleg. We know about lens resolution here because we are always running tests for the production insurance companies (resolution and stability tests). And the first thing I will do when I get a new lens is to test it. If it doesn't meet the 42 lines per mm minimum (center of lens at 1 stop down from wide open), we will throw it out.

I looked at the resolution specs on your site for various lenses. They indicate a spread (for instance 65/35 lines per mm). Does this mean 65 lines in the middle and 35mm in the corners of the picture or does it refer to stopping down? 65 lines at F8 and 35 lines wide open at F2? How close are the Russian primes you mentioned to their listed specifications?
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#4 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Oleg. We know about lens resolution here because we are always running tests for the production insurance companies (resolution and stability tests). And the first thing I will do when I get a new lens is to test it. If it doesn't meet the 42 lines per mm minimum (center of lens at 1 stop down from wide open), we will throw it out.

I looked at the resolution specs on your site for various lenses. They indicate a spread (for instance 65/35 lines per mm). Does this mean 65 lines in the middle and 35mm in the corners of the picture or does it refer to stopping down? 65 lines at F8 and 35 lines wide open at F2? How close are the Russian primes you mentioned to their listed specifications?


Hi.

I will be glad to know a result of your test of resolution of russian lenses.
But, I must underline, The every lens - complex system of high preicision optical components and high precision mechanical parts.
That's why, i recommend to test and adjust of flange focal distance of lens and test of lens by optical bentch at " dot" and other tests.

The russian lenses have two digitals at resolution test.( 65/35 mm ) 65 mm - resolution at centre of lens, 35 mm in the corner of the film gate, on fixed distance from centre.
The test of lens make with full open aperture. ( If i'm correct )
Yes, of course, you can measure of resolution with a few apertures.
The lens will have maximum optical qulaity at full open aperture + 2..3 stops.
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#5 Steve Larsen

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:02 PM

Thanks Oleg. We know about lens resolution here because we are always running tests for the production insurance companies (resolution and stability tests). And the first thing I will do when I get a new lens is to test it. If it doesn't meet the 42 lines per mm minimum (center of lens at 1 stop down from wide open), we will throw it out.

I looked at the resolution specs on your site for various lenses. They indicate a spread (for instance 65/35 lines per mm). Does this mean 65 lines in the middle and 35mm in the corners of the picture or does it refer to stopping down? 65 lines at F8 and 35 lines wide open at F2? How close are the Russian primes you mentioned to their listed specifications?

I'm not sure where you are but if you are on the west coast ( I am in Vancouver, BC) and would like to test the camera and lenses you are welcome to test mine. I have a fairly complete set of the slower primes for the Konvas 2M from 10mm - 750mm. I am looking at buying the fast primes and a zoom in the spring. I have done a reg test and some lens test's that I had projected and have since shot and transfrerred footage to HD and been very happy with. I did not measure the resolution of the lenses but if you would like too measure mine drop me a line.

Link to photo's of my primes: http://www.konvas.in...ge/Konvas Lens/
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#6 Nicholas Kinsey

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 03:49 PM

Thank you Oleg and Steve.

Very interesting. The listed specs seem to be quite adequate, at least as good as the Cooke lens specs. So as with all older lenses, the only thing to do is run resolution tests.

Steve's comment about the look of a picture transferred to HD is not really relevant since HD resolution is far inferior to the good old 35mm 4K image. His lenses might be perfect for HD, but truly inferior for 35mm projection.

I am interested in Steve's lens. Are these the famous Loma lenses or Electra lenses that Oleg mentions?
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#7 Shane Kelly

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:09 PM

Thank you Oleg and Steve.

Very interesting. The listed specs seem to be quite adequate, at least as good as the Cooke lens specs. So as with all older lenses, the only thing to do is run resolution tests.

Steve's comment about the look of a picture transferred to HD is not really relevant since HD resolution is far inferior to the good old 35mm 4K image. His lenses might be perfect for HD, but truly inferior for 35mm projection.

I am interested in Steve's lens. Are these the famous Loma lenses or Electra lenses that Oleg mentions?


Steves lenses look like the regular Lomo lenses, I believe that the higher end lenses came from the Ekran (or ecran) or CKBK factory. They tend to be faster and resolve (according to the factory specs) around 70mm.
Oleg, correct me if I'm wrong. Great info on your site by the way.
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#8 Steve Larsen

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:46 PM

Thank you Oleg and Steve.

Very interesting. The listed specs seem to be quite adequate, at least as good as the Cooke lens specs. So as with all older lenses, the only thing to do is run resolution tests.

Steve's comment about the look of a picture transferred to HD is not really relevant since HD resolution is far inferior to the good old 35mm 4K image. His lenses might be perfect for HD, but truly inferior for 35mm projection.

I am interested in Steve's lens. Are these the famous Loma lenses or Electra lenses that Oleg mentions?

Most of my lenses are the standard Lomo lenses. I think my newest lens the 10mm was made by CKBK and possibly some of the tele's.. When I first got the camera I did lens tests, had a work print made from my neg and had it projected at the lab. I was very happy with the results.
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#9 Mike Rizos

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 08:38 PM

Thanks Oleg. We know about lens resolution here because we are always running tests for the production insurance companies (resolution and stability tests). And the first thing I will do when I get a new lens is to test it. If it doesn't meet the 42 lines per mm minimum (center of lens at 1 stop down from wide open), we will throw it out.


Could you describe your testing procedure? Are you talking lens resolution or system resolution?
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#10 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 09:46 AM

Steves lenses look like the regular Lomo lenses, I believe that the higher end lenses came from the Ekran (or ecran) or CKBK factory. They tend to be faster and resolve (according to the factory specs) around 70mm.
Oleg, correct me if I'm wrong. Great info on your site by the way.


A some Information about russian lens manufacturers.

LOMO - Leningrad optical and mechanical factory - the first, big manufacturer of russian profesisonal cine lenses. But, LOMO had research division and construction department.

CKBK - this is basic research-and-development center with experimental, small-serial production.

Ekran - manufacturer of ciner equiopments, but, have lens production department too.


If the lens manufactured with big lots, this is LOMO.
If the lens have limited series of manufacturing or rare lens or special lens, or experimental version of lens, this can be made in CKBK.

Ekran manufactrured of last editions of lenses, and had two great series of " normal ", " fast" speed lenses and had series of special soft lenses.
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#11 Shane Kelly

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 10:33 AM

Olex,
what do think was the best lens that Lomo made? doesn't matter what mm.
Just curious.
Shane
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#12 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 12:15 PM

Olex,
what do think was the best lens that Lomo made? doesn't matter what mm.
Just curious.
Shane


I don't have answer on your question, because,
from one side, need see focal lengt, version of optical block, condition of lens, condfition of adjusting of lens.
The all LOMO, CKBK, Ekran lenses can be good.
The real quality of lens can show you a test with optical bench or test by film only.

That's why, you need find a proportion between a your wishes and your budget.

You need choose of number of design of lens too.
The digital after name of OKS show number of design of lens.
For example ; 35 OKS 16-35-1
16 - number of desigh, 35 - 35 mm focal length, - 1 version of modification of 16 design.
The more high number of design show more modern design of lens.

If we tell about series of lenses, i can classify on : ( from best)
- last versions of Ekran lenses from normal speed and fast speeds series.
- lenses from set of Kinor-35 H camera
- lenses from set of Konvas-2M camera.

But, a some detail. The many lenses from set of Konvas-2M and Kinor-35 H camera have similar optical blocks, and have different design of body of lens only.
That's why, from optical side, a some lenses of Konvas-2M and Kinor-35 ( normal speed set ) similar.

I use of LOMO lenses from set of Konvas-2M and Kinor-35 H cameras long time and happy.
The modern lenses Ekran series have high price and expensive for me.


P.S and a some addition information about russian lens manufacturer.
After 85, CKBK increase of production department and receive full name :
" CKBK research-production association EKRAN ".
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#13 Shane Kelly

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 12:41 PM

Thanks, Olex
Very informative answer. I guess I should have asked what is your favourite Lens?
Shane
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#14 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 04:39 PM

Thanks, Olex
Very informative answer. I guess I should have asked what is your favourite Lens?
Shane


The my favorite the new series of Elite Optics prime Super 35 lenses.

But, i will be happy to buy lenses from last Ekran fast series and normal speed ,
high sharpness series.

OKS-6-10-1 10 mm F2.8

OKS-3-14-1 14 mm F1.5

OKS-7-18-1 18 mm F1.4
OKS-10-18-1 18mm F2.0

OKS-5-22-1 22 mm F1.4
OKS-6-22-1 22 mm F2.0

OKS-10-28-1 28 mm F1.2
OKS-11-28-1 28 mm F2.0

OKS-15-35-1 35 mm f1.2
OKS-16-35-1 35 mm f 2.0

OKS-11-50-1 50 mm f1.2
OKS-13-50-1 50 mm f2.0

OKS-14-75-1 75 mm f1.4
oks-17-75-1 75 mm f 2.0

and other.
The some lenses from fast series ( 35 mm f1.2, 50 mm f1,2m 75 mm f1.4 ) i have and use with luxury.

From other side, i have many previous series of lenses and use for my shooting too and have high quliaty of footages.
This is :

OKS-1-16-1
OKS-1-18-1
OKS-5-18-1
OKS-3-22-1
OKS-7-28-2
OKS-12-35-1
OKS-6-50-1
OKS-6-75-1
OKS-2-100-2
OKS-1-150-1
OKS-1-200-1
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#15 Mark Henderson

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 10:46 PM

So what is the general feeling about these cameras? Are they superb, medium or acceptable quality? How do they compare to Arri, MovieCam, Aaton or the Eclair 35mm? Is it easy to get them serviced and repaired in the US?

Also, is Konvas the same as Kinor or are they totally different companies? Are the parts interchangeable?

Thanks, Mark
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#16 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 03:21 AM

So what is the general feeling about these cameras? Are they superb, medium or acceptable quality? How do they compare to Arri, MovieCam, Aaton or the Eclair 35mm? Is it easy to get them serviced and repaired in the US?

Also, is Konvas the same as Kinor or are they totally different companies? Are the parts interchangeable?

Thanks, Mark


About quality of russian cameras, you can read of notes of this forum, read of opinions of film makers, who use of russian cameras and other information.
The many russian movie shooted with Konvas and Kinor cameras. You can see quality of cameras on big screen.
Kinor-35H, Kinor-35S and Konvas two different versions of cameras.
Kinor-35H, Kinor-35S low noise camera for sync sound shooting with 500ft and 1000 ft film magazines.
Konvas compact camera with small size and weight with 200 ft and 400 ft of film magazines
Kinor-35 look like Movicam, Konvas look like Arri 2C

About service and repair.
You can order any service, repair and modification from me, from mans on Moskov and St-Petersurg.
A few compaines in USA can propose of repair and service of russian cine cameras too.
Today, we can propose a many versions of modern modification of electronics of Kinor and Konvas cameras.
This is can be miltu speed versions or version with speed synthesizer 0.1, 0.01, 0.002 fps.
The cameras can have digital film counter and remote control devices too.

The parts of Konvas and Kinor camera and film magazine not compatible,
but, Konvas and Kinor have similar lens mount OST-19 and lenses compatible ( with a some details ).
The outside devices can be use too.
You can use of mate box, base plate, follow focus of Kinor camera with Konvas.
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#17 Keneu Luca

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 05:03 AM

I have no experience with a Konvas camera. But I do find them interesting. I check em out on ebay every once in a while - I always see the same packages for sale. Are these stock photos, or are these things not selling?

I've heard they can be quite loud. I have a 16mm Arri S. Which camera is louder, just so I can get an idea.

Thanks.
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#18 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 05:51 AM

I have no experience with a Konvas camera. But I do find them interesting. I check em out on ebay every once in a while - I always see the same packages for sale. Are these stock photos, or are these things not selling?

I've heard they can be quite loud. I have a 16mm Arri S. Which camera is louder, just so I can get an idea.

Thanks.


No Konvas' sell pretty well. The guy's probably just asking too much for them. you can pick one up usually with a nice set of lenses and 3 to 5 200ft mag for under a grand. Russian cameras have their little idiocyncraies but they're WAY cool. Check out commiecam.com and You can get a lot of info on them. Now as for loud, imagine a Quezinard with a lens on it and you're approching the 55 dps of noise levels the Konvas puts out. They have sync motor availible for them BUT you better invest in some noise reduction software if you plan to use the for that perpose, MAYBE outside with a long lens under a barney WHILE inside a blimp and setting it back a mile or so away you can use it for sync work without digital noise filters BUT I wouldn't count on it. B)
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#19 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 06:58 PM

I have no experience with a Konvas camera. But I do find them interesting. I check em out on ebay every once in a while - I always see the same packages for sale. Are these stock photos, or are these things not selling?

I've heard they can be quite loud. I have a 16mm Arri S. Which camera is louder, just so I can get an idea.

Thanks.


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#20 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 07:10 PM

Oops. Hit the wrong button- here's the reply:

The Russian sellers are a varied lot. I have bought several cameras now, and often a week after I get mine an identical picture goes up with a nearly identical description, but it is another camera. Also, many of them just get relisted again and again when they don't get purchased. I don't have any of mine running yet, as they are in various stages of service and modification- but everyone says they are very loud. The modern "silent" cameras were the Kinor 35C and 35H.
Check out http://www.konvas.org/ as you will probably find most of your questions answered there.
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